How is it that the evolutionists . . .

[Interplanner]

I have searched for a discussion of 'formless and void' etc or 'tohu wa-bohu' and don't find much. Does anyone have enough memory to summarize it?

 

[alwight]

I say that God evolved into a living being, then proceeded to create. The creation days account is parabolic of epochs of time. Does that sound logical to you?

Gods don't sound logical to me, along with the Earth existing in total darkness before the sun radiated heat and light.

 

[Interplanner]

Gods don't sound logical to me, along with the Earth existing in total darkness before the sun radiated heat and light.

There were things already existing before 1:2, Alwight. The account of the 6 days is written from the location of earth and its system. That means other solar systems were out there, and the galaxy. but this setting, this location, was just 'tohu wa-bohu' before day 1. God then began making changes that went from its being formless and void to formed and filled, as we now have it.

The most important thing we can sort out is what was before 'formless and void' and what was after. There is no reason, given the nature of God in subsequent revelation, that he could not have made all these changes in 6 days; I'm not positive the account is trying to say that, but it could. There is also no reason that some evolutionary processes were occurring before the 6 days. But the world we now have is not what evolution would result in.

 

[alwight]

There were things already existing before 1:2, Alwight. The account of the 6 days is written from the location of earth and its system. That means other solar systems were out there, and the galaxy. but this setting, this location, was just 'tohu wa-bohu' before day 1. God then began making changes that went from its being formless and void to formed and filled, as we now have it.

The most important thing we can sort out is what was before 'formless and void' and what was after. There is no reason, given the nature of God in subsequent revelation, that he could not have made all these changes in 6 days; I'm not positive the account is trying to say that, but it could. There is also no reason that some evolutionary processes were occurring before the 6 days. But the world we now have is not what evolution would result in.

Apparently then the dividing of light from dark happened before starlight or perhaps only locally on Earth? :liberals:

 

[Interplanner]

Locally I think. When it was seen from here. I believe that is also Dr. Ross' view--that the account needs to be read as though seen from our location, in CREATION AND TIME. (Last I heard he was in Astrophysics at the U of Toronto.)

 

[popsthebuilder]

Gods don't sound logical to me, along with the Earth existing in total darkness before the sun radiated heat and light.

Good point.

Earth is metaphorical in Genesis prior to the Sun in our Solar system. I means mass and or matter.

Thanks.

 

[popsthebuilder]

There were things already existing before 1:2, Alwight. The account of the 6 days is written from the location of earth and its system. That means other solar systems were out there, and the galaxy. but this setting, this location, was just 'tohu wa-bohu' before day 1. God then began making changes that went from its being formless and void to formed and filled, as we now have it.

The most important thing we can sort out is what was before 'formless and void' and what was after. There is no reason, given the nature of God in subsequent revelation, that he could not have made all these changes in 6 days; I'm not positive the account is trying to say that, but it could. There is also no reason that some evolutionary processes were occurring before the 6 days. But the world we now have is not what evolution would result in.

Firstly the nature of existence prior to the form given to it by God is touched on in the hypothesis of quantization.

Secondly the 6 days of God's work is metaphorical that days equals eons plus and or minus the factors of time slowing( beginning) or time coalition( end).

Thanks.

All praise is God's.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Apparently then the dividing of light from dark happened before starlight or perhaps only locally on Earth? :liberals:

Th dividing of light was necessary for existence as we know it. A counter balance of opposing forces made of one substance by the will of the Creator.

Duality is true, yet technically All is one.

We must praise only the Creator/ God at all times in order to maintain exist in any manner similar to that which we know.

 

[CherubRam]

When the Earth was a formless body of water it did not rotate. What divided the day from the night was the rotation of the Earth. Dark clouds blocked the Sun light from shining upon the Earth before God cause the light to appear.

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

If the Sun did not already exist, then there could not have been a body of water. The Earth would have been frozen.

 

[CherubRam]

Genesis 1 NIV
1 In the beginning God created the heavens then the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

There was no terraforma, it was a body of water.

Again, the rotating Earth caused a separation of day and night.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Genesis 1 NIV
1 In the beginning God created the heavens then the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

There was no terraforma, it was a body of water.

Again, the rotating Earth caused a separation of day and night.

Water is metaphorical for the nature of mass/ matter at that point, the nature of void and darkness.

God was separate from this.
This is evident in the statement that he was the wind that was over the void.

 

[Interplanner]

Good point.

Earth is metaphorical in Genesis prior to the Sun in our Solar system. I means mass and or matter.

Thanks.

But it doesn't mean mass or matter abstractly. It means that this place was a formless and void mass. 'Formless and void' is a Hebrew expression that means that a judgement of God has taken place, Jer 4:13 (the only other usage).

The expression is also illuminated by the number of ancient near east cosmologies which indicate that a huge sinister creature was killed and conquered by the creator and turned into a liveable place. Immediately after the victory, before the earth is. One Pharoah took credit for the piles of dinosaur bones found at a certain spot in Egypt, for example. Took credit as the victorious creator.

 

[popsthebuilder]

But it doesn't mean mass or matter abstractly. It means that this place was a formless and void mass. 'Formless and void' is a Hebrew expression that means that a judgement of God has taken place, Jer 4:13 (the only other usage).

The expression is also illuminated by the number of ancient near east cosmologies which indicate that a huge sinister creature was killed and conquered by the creator and turned into a liveable place. Immediately after the victory, before the earth is. One Pharoah took credit for the piles of dinosaur bones found at a certain spot in Egypt, for example. Took credit as the victorious creator.

Quite interesting!

From where can I locate reputable literature on such?

Thank you.

 

[popsthebuilder]

But it doesn't mean mass or matter abstractly. It means that this place was a formless and void mass. 'Formless and void' is a Hebrew expression that means that a judgement of God has taken place, Jer 4:13 (the only other usage).

The expression is also illuminated by the number of ancient near east cosmologies which indicate that a huge sinister creature was killed and conquered by the creator and turned into a liveable place. Immediately after the victory, before the earth is. One Pharoah took credit for the piles of dinosaur bones found at a certain spot in Egypt, for example. Took credit as the victorious creator.

It seems as if you speak of one of the extinction events...indeed the work of God

 

[CherubRam]

Life suddenly appeared.

There is a sudden appearance of abundant life at the Cambrian layer, with thousands of plants and animals appearing there, and also upwards in the rock strata. There is no evidence for life in the Precambrian formations.

 

[Interplanner]

Water is metaphorical for the nature of mass/ matter at that point, the nature of void and darkness.

God was separate from this.
This is evident in the statement that he was the wind that was over the void.

Not sure if it would be metaphorical. I think it would be actual at that point.

If 'formless and void' has as much to do with a huge sinister creature as it does in other ancient near east cosmology, then there maybe a metaphor.

But I go with actual description for now because of Peter in 2 Peter 3's "through water and with water." V5 is saying things that I think are how we are supposed to read Genesis:
1, the heavens existed long ago (this time frame is distinct vocabulary chosen to be further back than when 'earth was formed.')
2, the earth was formed. Note the language that answers 'unformed' or 'formless.' This occurs later than the existence of the heavens
3, the forming was out of water and with water. Very interesting match to Gen 1:2.
4, the amount of time between 'forming' and the flood is relatively short. They are put together as 'the world of that time' whereas the existence of the heavens is much older.

 

[CherubRam]

When the Earth was a formless body of water it did not rotate. What divided the day from the night was the rotation of the Earth. Dark clouds blocked the Sun light from shining upon the Earth before God cause the light to appear.

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

If the Sun did not already exist, then there could not have been a body of water. The Earth would have been frozen.

Genesis 1 NIV
1 In the beginning God created the heavens then the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

There was no terraforma, it was a body of water.

Again, the rotating Earth caused a separation of day and night.

Life suddenly appeared.

There is a sudden appearance of abundant life at the Cambrian layer, with thousands of plants and animals appearing there, and also upwards in the rock strata. There is no evidence for life in the Precambrian formations.

Genesis 1:9 KJ
And God said, “Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

 

[Interplanner]

Not sure what is going on here with the colors and quotes CherubRam, but I did hear a counterargument from someone here about the Cambrian explosion. Lee Stroebel's documentary CASE FOR A CREATOR makes the claim that the Cambrian explosion is to be positively linked to this verse in Genesis. I don't know enough about the method of the fossil record to evaluate the TOL members comments. Maybe you do.

Hopefully they will see this an restate a summary.

 

[The Barbarian]

Life suddenly appeared.

If you think a billion years or so is "sudden." The first observable living things appeared well over billion years before the Cambrian. And in the Precambrian, we find complex multicellular organisms, tracks make by creeping soft-bodied organisms, and the first hardened body parts on otherwise soft-bodied organisms. Pretty much what you'd expet.

There is a sudden appearance of abundant life at the Cambrian layer, with thousands of plants and animals appearing there, and also upwards in the rock strata.

The explosion seems to have coincided with the evolution of complete exoskeletons, which suddenly allowed a large variety of lifestyles. Plants had their great explosion of diversity somewhat later.

There is no evidence for life in the Precambrian formations.

Do a search on "Ediacaran fossils." You've been misled about that.

 

[CherubRam]

Creatures that bore into the ground were found below the Cambrian layer, but they still belong to the Cambrian layer. Carbon dating methods are contested as being correct.