ECT How alone is Grace alone salvation?

[glorydaz]

That repentance is not just about an intellectual change of opinion but has a greater impact on us can be seen in 2 Corinthians 7:

…9 And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death
(2 Corinthians 7:9-10)

No one has suggested that repentance is merely an intellectual change of opinion. Was that a deliberate attempt to deceive? What I see from what you've written is that you are confusing "godly sorrow" with repentance, which the verse you posit should make clear.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.​

Here we see a turning toward God (not sorrow for sin).

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

And here...repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. A turning from unbelief to belief.

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;​

 

[Shasta]

[glorydaz;4973440]And you have made quite a few judgments about those of us who trust in the obedience of Christ instead of our own. Your assumptions about "free grace" are nothing more than finger pointing because you don't understand what it means to be new creatures created in Christ Jesus. If you did, you wouldn't be making such charges.

I don't know how you live but I encounter many people of the kind I have described

"Harsh taskmaster"? You're contradicting yourself again.

No I was being ironic.

No, Paul's admonition refers to all who go about establishing their own righteousness...those who add anything to His Gospel of believing unto salvation.

All of that to support your idea that believing it not enough. We must add "repentance" (and what you mean by that, I haven't yet figured out}, and obedience (which you insist means more than obeying the Gospel by believing). You've made all that pretty clear as you go about accusing others of not being righteous enough. You can't simply add to the gift of God and not expect to face some opposition. What the Spirit does to and through us is to His glory, and boasting is excluded. When that is not the case, we see people like you pointing your finger at what you imagine is another person's behaviour.

"God commands all people everywhere to repent." People who in response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit repent and believe come into obedience to this command. I just think faith and obedience go hand-in-hand. You cannot tell the difference between that and the works of the Mosaic Law.

I do not have to imagine many people's behavior because they tell me what they do. I talk to people for a living.

As far as your interpretation of what Paul says...we are not in the flesh. You can't walk in the flesh if your are not in the flesh. Paul is explaining...not commanding.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

You are right. In this scripture he is not commanding. He is teaching. In the following scripture he is commanding.

13 Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:13).

PS...would you please keep your posts shorter, then we won't take up so much space per post?

I'll try

 

[Shasta]

No one has suggested that repentance is merely an intellectual change of opinion. Was that a deliberate attempt to deceive? What I see from what you've written is that you are confusing "godly sorrow" with repentance, which the verse you posit should make clear.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.​

Here we see a turning toward God (not sorrow for sin).

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

And here...repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. A turning from unbelief to belief.

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;​

That was a discussion between Jerry and I. He tried to say repentance is just a "change of mind" but it also involves a change of will as well. I know Godly sorrow is not necessarily the same as repentence. Esau wept but did not repent. The fact that Godly sorrow is connected to repentance at all shows the radical nature of repentance.

 

[daqq]

Galatians says "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" Grammatically, word "walk" is not a statement declaring what they were (inevitably) doing by virtue of some legal position in Christ. It was a command that required a response of the will. "Walking" refers to how we behave, the pattern of our choices. If we can choose to walk in the Spirit we can certainly choose not to. Whenever we refuse to walk in the Spirit, we will automatically walk in the flesh.

And the "new covenant Spirit", (the "new Spirit" of Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is the Testimony of Messiah which is found in the Gospel accounts. The MADist dispensationist position therefore automatically disallows even the most remote capability of attempting to "walk in the Spirit" according to how Paul truly means it; for MADists do not actually believe that the Testimony of Messiah which is found in the Gospel accounts applies to themselves, but rather, according to them; it only really applies to "the Jews" and-or "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". That is precisely the entire reason for the Mid-Acts position; but that is what happens when people do not understand that testimony is spirit, and especially the Testimony of the Master, (John 6:63).

 

[glorydaz]

Galatians says "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" Grammatically, word "walk" is not a statement declaring what they were (inevitably) doing by virtue of some legal position in Christ. It was a command that required a response of the will. "Walking" refers to how we behave, the pattern of our choices. If we can choose to walk in the Spirit we can certainly choose not to. Whenever we refuse to walk in the Spirit, we will automatically walk in the flesh.

No, Paul is stating a fact, not issuing a command. Those in the Spirit will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh...they are not in the flesh, they do no live in the flesh, and they don't walk in the flesh. It has nothing to do with our "legal position in Christ" because being IN CHRIST and having the Spirit in us is a reality.

Romans 8:10-14 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

What you should be looking at is the word "fulfil" instead of whether it's a command or not.

 

[glorydaz]

That was a discussion between Jerry and I. He tried to say repentance is just a "change of mind" but it also involves a change of will as well.

By putting that word "will" in there, you change it to human effort. Believing is being persuaded by the Gospel to believe.

 

[Nang]

Here we see a turning toward God (not sorrow for sin).

Since MAD does not believe in the necessity of being born anew from above, what do you think causes the "turning?" With what new capacity does a sinner, with a wicked heart, "turn" from sin?

Paul taught that no sinner understand or seeks God. Romans 3:11

Paul taught that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the gospel cannot be believed. I Corinthians 2:11,14.

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;​

The scripture you present clearly says God chooses whether to "give" sinners repentance and knowledge of Truth, or not.

I contend no man knows grace until and unless they are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-8). This miracle of regeneration changes the human heart, mind, and will which enable the sinner to repent from sin and believe. That is grace that results in a faithful walk of obedience and holy living in the Spirit; witnessing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Obviously I cannot show you my faith any more than you can show me your "works" I know nothing about your life and you know nothing about mine other than what I post. Even if you were to describe all your good works I would have no idea about whether what you said really happened or it was your interpretation of what happened...but you probably were not being serious about that.

It is interesting, is it not, that I, the one you are accusing of being for "works" never mention anything about what Christ might have done through me. I have absolutely no interest in doing so nor do I have any interest in getting "reps" around here. I am only here to discuss the scriptures Rather than do this you persist in calling names and hurling invectives. As for this john w I know next to nothing about what he believes so your reference is lost on me.

I showed your my works. (John 5:39)

I've put Him on. His works are now in place of my Dead Works. Don't you understand what I'm saying Nicodemus? You are a "teacher" and yet you don't know that you must be born again? You don't understand what the wedding garment is? Are you still trying to turn the stones to bread? Have you not comprehended that we are utterly incapable of paying the debt?

Do you not know it's the work of He and not Ye?

Why so stumped oh great teacher of men? "Good teacher"?

If you then who are "Evil"?

 

[Nang]

No, Paul is stating a fact, not issuing a command. Those in the Spirit will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh...they are not in the flesh, they do no live in the flesh, and they don't walk in the flesh. It has nothing to do with our "legal position in Christ" because being IN CHRIST and having the Spirit in us is a reality.

Romans 8:10-14 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

What you should be looking at is the word "fulfil" instead of whether it's a command or not.

From the beginning, God issued commands to Adam, to believe in Him and to repent from learning evil (by partaking from the forbidden fruit). God made covenant promises to Adam, that he could freely choose from all the other trees of sustenance, but if he ate of that tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. Genesis 2:16

This is the original giving of the Law through a Covenant of Works, which has never been rescinded. All humankind is accountable and responsible before God to obey the commands to repent and believe, but no man can nor will. Romans 3:19-20

Only by grace, given from God in the new Covenant, is the remedy found for this dilemma. Every believer in every age, has found life and righteousness through the new Covenant of Grace that fulfills the Law and Commands through the righteous life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ working on behalf of His people. This is the only Gospel that has the power to changes and save sinful souls. Romans 3:21-31

 

[Nang]

I showed your my works. (John 5:39)

I've put Him on.

How exactly did you do this? What does this even mean?

A change of your sinful mind or wicked heart?

Can a leopard change his spots?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Go back read what I quoted and tell me how I have misinterpreted it.

I don't have time to explain how you have misinterpreted it. What I mean is I don't have time to correct "ALL" of your posts here. What I mean is... what haven't you misinterpreted?

You are bringing yourself into the equation! [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] says it well. It's the work of ONE, not two.

S-u-r-r-e-n-d-e-r! It will all make sense... Let Go! He did it! It's "finished".

Done!... not do!

Do you "see"? Can you "hear"? Are you "understanding"?

 

[Nang]

S-u-r-r-e-n-d-e-r! It will all make sense... Let Go! He did it! It's "finished".

This is not the language of the Gospel!

You do not even try to explain what you think Jesus did on the cross or what exactly He finished.

You are dealing in platitudes, and abbreviated ones at that . . Not enough . . No power to save in such messaging.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

How exactly did you do this? What does this even mean?

A change of your sinful mind or wicked heart?

Can a leopard change his spots?

Can a Nang see that they are loved and all the words here aren't to hurt them but to encourage them?

Hint... (Gal. 3:27 and Eph. 6:11)

Nicodemus ... you must be BORN AGAIN!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is not the language of the Gospel!

You do not even try to explain what you think Jesus did on the cross or what exactly He finished.

You are dealing in platitudes, and abbreviated ones at that . . Not enough . . No power to save in such messaging.

We have NO power to save! Ephesians 2:8f and John 5:39, 40 is all that's required. Believe or don't! I would think you understand what I am saying and so should Shasta... being soooooooo... learned and all?

How can the fruit inspector inspect if they don't understand what they are "inspecting"?

 

[Danoh]

Since MAD does not believe in the necessity of being born anew from above, what do you think causes the "turning?" With what new capacity does a sinner, with a wicked heart, "turn" from sin?

Paul taught that no sinner understand or seeks God. Romans 3:11

Paul taught that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the gospel cannot be believed. I Corinthians 2:11,14.

The scripture you present clearly says God chooses whether to "give" sinners repentance and knowledge of Truth, or not.

I contend no man knows grace until and unless they are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-8). This miracle of regeneration changes the human heart, mind, and will which enable the sinner to repent from sin and believe. That is grace that results in a faithful walk of obedience and holy living in the Spirit; witnessing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You obviously hold to Calvinist understandings.

The result being that you are bound to look at things from within that.

Mid-Acts is not so much the Theology it ends up at, rather, at least for me; it is a set of Bible study principles apparant in Scripture, the consistent application of which, results in A Mid-Acts Dispensational Theology.

The "agree with us, or face our beligerence against anyone who does not" is no more an aspect of Mid-Acts itself, than your own often beligerence against anyone who opposes your views.

That is a function and result of, your personality.

As much as it is the function and result of, the personality of anyone on any "side" who is like that, when disagreed with.

Given that, and the fact that both all shades of Mid-Acts and you, obviously study things from two different perspectives...

...may as well expect a Pharisee and a Sadducee - each of whom had held a different perspective - to come to agreement on resurrection.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know how you live but I encounter many people of the kind I have described

Yes, lots of people claim to be believers when they aren't, and they come from all sides.

No I was being ironic.

Oh. :chuckle:

"God commands all people everywhere to repent." People who in response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit repent and believe come into obedience to this command. I just think faith and obedience go hand-in-hand. You cannot tell the difference between that and the works of the Mosaic Law.

I think God is commanding all people everywhere to turn to Him from their unbelief. Otherwise, He would have said repent, believe and obey. He didn't.

I do not have to imagine many people's behavior because they tell me what they do. I talk to people for a living.

Then you should know that lots of people think they are saved when they aren't.

You are right. In this scripture he is not commanding. He is teaching. In the following scripture he is commanding.

13 Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:13).

No, he's still explaining the options. He finishes the thought by saying, "But God be thanked....ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered....(obeyed the Gospel). ie when we have been created new creatures in Christ.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.​

I'll try

:thumb:

 

[Nang]

Can a Nang see that they are loved and all the words here aren't to hurt them but to encourage them?

Hint... (Gal. 3:27 and Eph. 6:11)

Nicodemus ... you must be BORN AGAIN!

MADists deny the new birth (regeneration) is for NT believers, but the miracle only applied to Jews in the future.

 

[Nang]

We have NO power to save! Ephesians 2:8f and John 5:39, 40 is all that's required.

If something is "required" you are preaching a "works" gospel.

Grace that saves requires nothing, but a changed heart, mind, and will . . which by necessity is raised to new spiritual life by the resurrection power of God the Holy Spirit, alone.

 

[Nang]

You obviously hold to Calvinist understandings.

I am a Scripturalist and that is my frame of reference.

I only find fault with persons who abuse or falsely teach the Word of God.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

MADists deny the new birth (regeneration) is for NT believers, but the miracle only applied to Jews in the future.

Nang... you misunderstand the Birth. It's Eph. 1:13 ... we remain dead until we 1 Co. 15 ... the (Regen) while we are alive is all loss! It's dead works of us! We only Glory Him! And the day we finally receive those REGENERATED bodies... we'll keep on glorying Him. It's ALL about HIM! The biggest sinner that's saved is still "SAVED". It's best to count ourselves the "Chief of Sinners"! Carnal judgment is born of anything else!

Don't be that Camel at the eye on judgment day!