Guns!

[Eric h]

We definitely took out Saddam Insane and he definitely was hurting the Iraqi polity, because he was corrupt. All he did was abuse his people's human rights, with impunity. He hurt them, we hurt him, that's love, and justice.

Every conflict on Earth happens for a reason. Saddam abused the human rights of his people, America set events in motion, resulting in 300k dead Iraqi; plus a million displaced.

Are the Iraqi people now pleased with what America has done for them? Their country has been destroyed and there are now far more abuses of human rights than in the past. We will all have to answer to God, how does our justice compare to what God asks of us?

 

[JudgeRightly]

We will all have to answer to God, how does our justice compare to what God asks of us?

Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people. - Genesis 14:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis14:14-16&version=NKJV

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

 

[Eric h]

Iraqi's like very many other people tolerate political high crimes. Simple as.

Germans living in Germany during WW2, had the same kind of ideology and joined the Nazi Party. At his trial after the war, Hermann Goering explained how easy it is to manipulate people. Here is what he said…

Hermann Goering.
Why of course the people don’t want to go to war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can hope for is to come back to his farm in one piece.Naturally the common people don’t want war, neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.

But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether in a democracy, fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Bush, Blair, Putin still use this same manipulation.

 

[Eric h]

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

Jesus would have known about Abraham, King David and every other prophet that took Israel to war. The Romans were occupying Israel at the time of Jesus, giving Jesus opportunities to talk about fighting the Romans. Yet Jesus never taught the message of war that the preceding prophets did.

Jesus had a greater message, one of Love, forgiving and praying for your enemies.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus would have known about Abraham, King David and every other prophet that took Israel to war. The Romans were occupying Israel at the time of Jesus, giving Jesus opportunities to talk about fighting the Romans. Yet Jesus never taught the message of war that the preceding prophets did.

Jesus had a greater message, one of Love, forgiving and praying for your enemies.

Answer the question, Eric.

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

 

[Eric h]

Answer the question, Eric.

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

It may have been Acceptable for Abraham to do what he did, during his lifetime. Jesus had opportunities to fight the occupying Romans, but he didn’t teach this. Jesus taught love God, love your neighbours, forgive, love and pray for your enemies. Did Abraham teach this?

Who had the greater good message, Abraham or Jesus?

 

[JudgeRightly]

It may have been Acceptable for Abraham to do what he did, during his lifetime.

You're still avoiding the answer, Eric.

Let's try again:

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

Was what he did wrong?

I'm not asking if it was acceptable. I'm not asking about what might be.

I'm asking if what Abraham did was right or wrong.

So was it right or wrong for Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, to go after the nations who kidnapped Lot and his family, and stole their possessions?

 

[ok doser]

Who had the greater good message, Abraham or Jesus?

Spoiler alert. They're the same message.

 

[Idolater]

Every conflict on Earth happens for a reason. Saddam [Insane] abused the human rights of his people, America set events in motion

No. You just said, "Saddam abused the human rights of his [own] people." Saddam set events in motion.

, resulting in 300k dead Iraq

Saddam.

i; plus a million displaced.

Saddam.

Are the Iraqi people now pleased with what America has done for them?

Saddam.

Their country has been destroyed and there are now far more abuses of human rights than in the past. We will all have to answer to God, how does our justice compare to what God asks of us?

The Iraqi people tolerate corruption in high places. As I said, the only time America has been able to thwart what an entire polity holds as tolerable is to occupy them for decades on end until that self-disrespect they all have for themselves is snuffed out. For example Germany and Japan after WWII. For an aborted example see the Union's occupation of the South after the Civil War. That one was cut short in 1887, at least 50% too early. After the Union's occupation of the South ended the South enacted countless racist laws which took near 80 years before they were repealed. If Reconstruction had been allowed to persist, there wouldn't have been any racist laws for MLK to fight against in the 1960's.

 

[Eric h]

Spoiler alert. They're the same message.

Abraham deceived the king by saying, his wife was in fact his sister. Abraham slept with his wife’s servant. Abraham armed 318 of his servants to fight. When did Jesus do any of these things? When did Jesus say it was okay to deceive, to have a baby out of wedlock, or to fight?

Jesus had a greater good message, to love God, love our neighbours, love, pray for and to forgive our enemies.

 

[ok doser]

Spoiler alert. They're the same message.

A message that will remain incomprehensible to morons

 

[Eric h]

A message that will remain incomprehensible to morons

I quoted passages from the Bible that referred to Abraham and Jesus. What was moranic?

 

[Right Divider]

What was moranic?

That!

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're still avoiding the answer, Eric.

Let's try again:

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

Was what he did wrong?

I'm not asking if it was acceptable. I'm not asking about what might be.

I'm asking if what Abraham did was right or wrong.

So was it right or wrong for Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, to go after the nations who kidnapped Lot and his family, and stole their possessions?

Notice how @Eric h refuses to answer the question. He cannot, for any way he answers it would undermine his entire position.

It's because he knows that calling what Abraham did wrong would raise questions about God considering him to be a righteous man, and because he knows that Calling what Abraham did right threatens the very foundations of his pacifism, because it's tantamount to admitting that it's sometimes OK to go to war, which is completely contradictory to his position.

But the principle that is being taught that Eric h doesn't seem to recognize is not only that it's ok to go to war sometimes, but that "It's ok to go to war for just reasons."

In the case of the kidnapping of Lot and his family and the theft of his possessions, Abraham went to war against the guilty kings because they had kidnapped multiple people, and stolen their possessions.

We find out later in the Bible that God considers kidnapping to be a crime worthy of the death penalty, and Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, had every right to enforce that punishment on them.

 

[Eric h]

Calling what Abraham did right threatens the very foundations of his pacifism,

Pacifism is a troubling word, it means when there is conflict, peacemakers have to somehow stand in the middle and stand up for peace. I do this regularly as an individual, I probably take far greater risks than I should. Peaceful solutions are important to me. If lads broke into my house with knives and baseball bats, I keep nothing to protect myself from such an event. I have had a knife held to my throat, I have been beaten up in the past. I still believe in searching for a peaceful solution.

When it comes to wars, you or I don’t have a say. Our governments make decisions on our behalf. I have been against most wars that Britain has been involved in. I accept there are some wars that are more justifiable, but I disagree with the majority of wars we have fought.

Jesus said, we should live by the two greatest commandments of love. I truthfully cannot understand how you could do this with a weapon in your hand. Our life should be full of kindness and care.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Pacifism is a troubling word, it means when there is conflict, peacemakers have to somehow stand in the middle and stand up for peace. I do this regularly as an individual, I probably take far greater risks than I should. Peaceful solutions are important to me. If lads broke into my house with knives and baseball bats, I keep nothing to protect myself from such an event. I have had a knife held to my throat, I have been beaten up in the past. I still believe in searching for a peaceful solution.

When it comes to wars, you or I don’t have a say. Our governments make decisions on our behalf. I have been against most wars that Britain has been involved in. I accept there are some wars that are more justifiable, but I disagree with the majority of wars we have fought.

Jesus said, we should live by the two greatest commandments of love. I truthfully cannot understand how you could do this with a weapon in your hand. Our life should be full of kindness and care.

You're still avoiding the answer, Eric.

Let's try again:

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

Was what he did wrong?

I'm not asking if it was acceptable. I'm not asking about what might be.

I'm asking if what Abraham did was right or wrong.

So was it right or wrong for Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, to go after the nations who kidnapped Lot and his family, and stole their possessions?

 

[Eric h]

So was it right or wrong for Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, to go after the nations who kidnapped Lot and his family, and stole their possessions?

Anything that is considered to be a law, must hang and depend on the greatest commandments. Abram could have offered a ransom, he was a wealthy man. Instead, he routed the kidnappers, he decided who should live and who should die. Abram searched for a human solution, had he searched for a divine solution, he would have looked to love, forgive and pray for his enemies.


Today’s Gospel.
Mt 5:38-42

Jesus said to his disciples:
"You have heard that it was said,
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil.
When someone strikes you on your right cheek,
turn the other one to him as well.

 

[Eric h]

The Iraqi people tolerate corruption in high places. As I said, the only time America has been able to thwart what an entire polity holds as tolerable is to occupy them for decades on end until that self-disrespect they all have for themselves is snuffed out.

Settlers came to America, they had a couple of centuries to settle in with the indigenous culture. Instead the occupation turned to near genocide. When you take territory by force, you have to protect it with force. Is that one of the reasons, the founding fathers wanted its citizens to be armed?

For an aborted example see the Union's occupation of the South after the Civil War. That one was cut short in 1887, at least 50% too early. After the Union's occupation of the South ended the South enacted countless racist laws which took near 80 years before they were repealed.

During the 1800’s, there were times when about ten percent of the population were slaves. America forced slaves to do what they did not want to do. Another reason for the founding fathers to arm their citizens. How can you have a just society?

If Reconstruction had been allowed to persist, there wouldn't have been any racist laws for MLK to fight against in the 1960's.

If slavery had never been an issue in the US, we would never have heard of MLK or the KKK

 

[JudgeRightly]

Anything that is considered to be a law, must hang and depend on the greatest commandments. Abram could have offered a ransom, he was a wealthy man. Instead, he routed the kidnappers, he decided who should live and who should die. Abram searched for a human solution, had he searched for a divine solution, he would have looked to love, forgive and pray for his enemies.


Today’s Gospel.
Mt 5:38-42

Jesus said to his disciples:
"You have heard that it was said,
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil.
When someone strikes you on your right cheek,
turn the other one to him as well.

You're still avoiding the answer, Eric.

Let's try again:

Was Abraham (who can be considered his tribe's government) wrong for doing what he did to rescue Lot? Or was what the kings of the nations did that took Lot and his family and possessions a just reason for Abraham to go to war against them?

Was what he did wrong?

I'm not asking if it was acceptable. I'm not asking about what might be.

I'm asking if what Abraham did was right or wrong.

So was it right or wrong for Abraham, as the head of the government of his tribe, to go after the nations who kidnapped Lot and his family, and stole their possessions?

 

[Idolater]

Settlers came to America, they had a couple of centuries to settle in with the indigenous culture. Instead the occupation turned to near genocide.

It wasn't an occupation. That was international relations, and the natives weren't good at it.

When you take territory by force, you have to protect it with force. Is that one of the reasons, the founding fathers wanted its citizens to be armed?

The natives would raid civilian camps and murder babies, children and women, not just the men. You do know that, right?

During the 1800’s, there were times when about ten percent of the population were slaves. America forced slaves to do what they did not want to do. Another reason for the founding fathers to arm their citizens. How can you have a just society?

This isn't coherent.

If slavery had never been an issue in the US, we would never have heard of MLK or the KKK

It took the Civil War to abolish slavery, hundreds of thousands of Americans sacrificed their lives, many in the losing effort. And yet America was then and still is, the paragon of protecting human freedoms and rights against all oppressors. Sometimes you need to wage war for human rights, Eric. Otherwise the world becomes Hell on Earth, like if people who think like you do (which isn't very much) were in charge of resisting Nazi Germany in WWII. You'd be speaking German rn Eric. You should thank God every day that you get to speak English, and visit WWII memorials a lot. Teach your grandkids about how heroic their ancestors were, and encourage them to be heroic themselves. Don't teach them to become like you. We'd all be in Hell rn if people like you were in charge.