ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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Sonnet

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intojoy said:
Well that's what scripture says.
All were atoned for but those who will accept the free gift were foreknown and predestined.


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Jesus atoned for those predestined to be excluded from regeneration? Are you serious?
 
TulipBee

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Sonnet said:
No - but to then suggest that all had access to the $5 would be.

Verse upon verse offers salvation through belief to whomever. Romans 10:1ff, john 3:16, Romans 9:30-32...etc.
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The other 5 would rob those with $5 just like you.
As an self-claimed unbeliever, you try to rob the believers.

But intersting how well atheists know the surface of the bible like fiction.
 
TulipBee

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Sonnet said:
It's possible.
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Sonnet

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Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
 
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[QUOTE=Cross Reference;4724809]That is certainly a way of a much needed obfuscation, eh Nang?[/QUOTE]

Lets try again:


[QUOTE=Nang;4724631]
God decreed to save a people (creatures) through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:3-7
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Paul is expressing God's mercy and His great love to God to be inclusive of all who confess Christ and are called according to His purposes.


The OT saints were saved through faith in God's promises of the Christ who would come into the world as the seed of Eve and David. Genesis 3:15; John 7:42, Romans 1:3, II Timothy 2:8
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Saved by a promise of salvation that they would order up their lives to live in that hope but not redeemed, right? Where did they go when they died?

It was the will of the Creator to reconcile creatures to Himself, despite their failings and faults.
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So by that you are now saying the the OT saints really didn't need to be saints. Isn't that correct?

Here is what Paul wrote:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we [now] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by [our] faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2 (KJV) [emphasis mine]

So by that, fallen [righteous in the eyes of God] man has now that peace with God made for him by the blood of Jesus shed on his behalf and he doesn't even realize it. I would have to believe that there are many fallen men who are pretty good men who have no idea Jesus did that for them; no idea they had the penalty of Adam's sin lifted from them and all they needed was a preacher to inform them for them then to make their choice. You can believe that, can't you?


This required the hypostatic union of man/God as manifested in Jesus Christ.
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Far as I can tell it only required a sinless man's blood. Why would say it required more than that?

I won't even ask why you think that the Incarnation of Jesus Christ might challenge His Sovereignty.
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Challenge? God can do whatever wants except violate Himself.
 
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Nang said:
No, Adam was allowed to freely exercise (secondary) moral choices according to God's predetermined moral standards (Law).

Adam was given the moral agency to freely (independently)live so, but Adam failed to submit to obedience . . causing the loss of this God-given capacity to live in harmony with God. Instead, the moral agency (will) of man corrupted, died, and came into bondage to death, sin, and the devil.





Adam's moral agency (will) was immediately subjected to Divine Law and commands, and Adam was held accountable and responsible to freely subjugate his actions to the word and will of God.

IOW's the only real freedom of human will, can only be found in perfect obedience to God's moral standards (Law).

The moral agency of man is secondary and was/is never autonomous from the sovereign word and will of God.

And the biblical history and revelation has proven to all men, that only the Son of Man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, exhibited a human free will completely obedient to the word and will of God . . and He did so on the behalf of His poor creatures, who fail to live according to the glory of God.
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This all is just more "polywoggle" from the supralapsarian Nang.

Adam's relationship with God was never broken. What was broken was "intimacy" with Him. For fallen Adam to now "know" God would be in the form of the "Ten Commandments" eventually revealed to his progeny, etched in stone,.
 
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intojoy said:
Adam and the angels were created holy and sinless with the ability to make a choice contrary to their natures.

the angels that did not choose to rebel were instantly confirmed in righteousness and now can never sin.

The angels who sinned were confirmed in unholiness and no salvation was offered to them.

Adam was given the promise of being redeemed. When Cain was born the original Hebrew read "I have gotten a man, Jehovah." Eve's theology was correct in that her seed would produce the God Man to destroy Satan but her declaration of Cain wasn't correct.

When I became born again my spirit which was like a corpse within my body was regenerated and I now identify myself with my newborn human spirit which does not sin and can not sin. I await the glorification of my body when all that I struggle with will be wiped away - praise God. Although there are failures in my walk in Christ I attribute those as coming from within my members of whom I no longer identify as being me. All things have passed away and I am passed from death to life. This is how our God and Father views me now. Yeshua said even the faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain and without faith it is impossible to please God. My faith is in His word which He shall keep and I am forever an object of God's omnipotent love.


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Adam was created sinless and innocent, to be made holy through the making a series of moral choices that would have led to his glorification by eating of the tree of Life.
 
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Sonnet said:
Not an injustice but I'd feel uncomfortable giving $5 to some and not others. Better to offer to all as Scripture teaches. You seem to be in denial regarding John 3:16.
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Correct. There are circumstances which God had given the '$5' then took it back and gave it to another; gave to ten and only one thanked Him.

Never argue in hypothetics with anyone unless all the facts are made known..
 
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As a created being I view the work of salvation as the outworking of God' s love
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This is the salvation you say you understand as being the outworking of God's love:

". . . this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

Still want to say you understand?
 
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intojoy said:
The natural man does not receive the word of God because it is spiritual and that man cannot understand it.

But he can understand the gospel message that Christ was the propitiation for all the sin in the world.

You understand the gospel Sonnetface. But if you are not elect you will not own it, you will not believe it.


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What I find interesting is that Sonnet, the absence of his confession of faith in Jesus notwithstanding, understands more of the scriptures than anyone I have read in all my years, on this forum; almost without error when objectively making his points. But then, that is just me who does confess Christ and I am considered a heretic. 'Go figger'.
 
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intojoy said:
No, the scriptures categorizes man into four categories based on their ability to understand the scripture. The unregenerate man has zero ability, the baby believer only handles milk - like Calvinism, the carnal believer also can only handle milk and then there is the full grown spiritual adult man who knows the mysteries of the bible.


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John doesn't agree with you. Read his letters 1John 1 and 2. Then speak of what you think you understand.
 
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