God's attitude towards science and progress

[JudgeRightly]

My blasphemies?

Yes, your blasphemies.

Yet you are the one saying that God punishes folks eternally, some just because they never got to hear of Him.

Remember Psalm 19?

The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge.There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard.Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat. - Psalm 19:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm19:1-6&version=NKJV

Heaven declares the Glory of God. Meaning the "excuse" of "but I never even heard of God or His Bible or of Jesus or anything relating to God" won't fly on Judgement Day, because the very heavens declare there is a God, and the very earth shows that He made it.

Romans, I believe it's chapter 2, if not 3, talks about how someone who has never even heard of God Almighty can be saved, through faith in God.

And you consider this to be "good"?

Someone being punished for unforgiven sin? I think it's very good.

I knew you had no answer to this post which I will paste below.

I don't believe there is a hell in which unbelievers burn for eternity.

Clete did say, and I agree with him, that the flames of the lake of fire may not be literal, but a description of the kind of pain those who ultimately reject God will experience for the rest of eternity.

As for the eternity part, what do you think God can do with those whom He has to separate from Himself and those who love Him? When He already sent His own Son to die for them, and they reject His free gift? They clearly don't want to be with Him? What can God do about that? He can't force them to be with Him for the rest of eternity, because it would literally worse for them than separation from Him.

But it amazes me that folks like you, who spout about a "good" God, and a "logical" God and a "reasonable" God and a God who's logic is to promote life, would consider it possible for God to do worse than the Spanish Inquisition.

You do believe the Spanish Inquisition was wrong don't you, when they tortured poor people, to give them a taste of hell, in order to save their souls.
At least they were ignorant.
At best they had good intentions.
And, thank God, these poor soul's torture only lasted a short while.

Yes, Hell is FAR FAR WORSE! But in general, Christians today preach a lovey dovey God who forgives everyone, so no one is scared for the safety of their very soul, and ultimately most reject Him. If more Christians would teach that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and that the unrepentant sinner is at the very bottom of that basket, then I can almost guarantee you more would accept His free gift.

But Christians like you, who lecture me about my views of a God who is fickle and can do cruel things - never in my wildest imagination could this God of mine be torturing my unsaved loved one for all eternity, while I am eating of the tree of Life and walking the golden streets.

You should be witnessing to your unsaved loved one, if you don't want them to end up in the Lake for the rest of eternity. Shame on you for being selfish and not doing everything you can possibly do to bring them to Christ.

I asked you this to test you. I absolutely don't believe what you defend, which is a God so cruel, He tortures unbelievers for all eternity.

God will not be sitting in the lake of fire for all of eternity having souls brought in and whipping them Himself. You cannot blame God for offering a free gift of eternal life to every human being. And then when one of those humans rejects that gift, you still cannot blame God, because He even sent His only Son to die for that person. Or what, do you think God is sick, that He will force those who don't want to be with Him to live with Him for all of eternity?

My loving God drops them in the lake of fire (molten lava)

Not necessarily.

where they are burnt up in an instant,

What's burnt up? They won't be given bodies before being cast into the lake.

even though the fire is eternal, and their smoke rises forever, they, with their consciousness are long gone. Their worm (maggots) may not die in Gehenna, but they have long disappeared. And my good God does not even have Satan and the demons suffer forever, they too will be utterly destroyed in hell fire.

So you think that God will utterly destroy their souls, so that they no longer exist? Not even God can do that, as He placed eternity in our (humanity's) hearts. We are eternal creatures. It would take an infinite amount of effort to destroy just one soul, let alone the trillions of souls who have ultimately rejected God.

Ezekiel 28:18
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So your definition of God being "logical" is useless, since it should be obvious that there could be no "logical" reason to punish either spirits or man eternally.

The logical reason for God to separate those who reject Him is that if He were to allow them into Heaven, heaven would become Hell, it would be like what we have today here on earth, but much worse.

God's punishment is directed at folks repenting.

Who are you talking about? Those who say "Lord, Lord", and whom God will say "depart from Me, for I never knew you"?

But these have had their last chance.
And all the rest of us are in heaven, so we don't need to see and fear what might befall us for being naughty.

Which is why it is important to witness to unbelievers, tell them that if they don't repent, the rest of their existence will not be pleasant.

And who could enjoy eternity knowing someone you love is suffering in hell.

There will certainly be tears shed, and I imagine the pain of losing loved ones, who again, ultimately rejected God, will last for a long time.

God will, as scripture say, wipe away all our tears. But it certainly won't be immediate. But He will wipe away our tears. Meaning we will eventually move on, knowing that, hopefully, we did everything we could do to bring them to God.

You, and all those thinking this evil thing of God, yet brown-nosing and calling him "good" for your misunderstanding of the doctrine of hell - you beyond amaze me.

God does good because He is good, and we have the Trinity to verify that, for eternity past, God is good, and has never done anything other than what is good.

Iouae, which Testament speaks more about Hell, Hades, etc? The Old or the New?

 

[iouae]

Yes, your blasphemies.

Ahh the tone of the Spanish Inquisition, in your first three words.

Remember Psalm 19?

The heavens declare the glory of God;

So you think heavens witness to the existence of God is enough to condemn all to an ever burning hell?
It almost sounds like we don't need a Christian witness, since we have the heavens.

Unfortunately, most folks in most cultures can look at the heavens and believe in another god or no god.
So heaven's witness only works on believers.

But your Spanish-Inquisitiony self is sure to insist David and Paul must be right, that humans are without excuse AND that they deserve eternal punishing for being a bit illiterate as to their ability to read the heavens.

Romans, I believe it's chapter 2, if not 3, talks about how someone who has never even heard of God Almighty can be saved, through faith in God.

If you read the heavens as badly as you read Romans, you would be toast.

Someone being punished for unforgiven sin? I think it's very good.

You would, because you have the spirit of the Spanish Inquisition, not Christ.

And you obviously cannot read, since the wages of sin is DEATH not eternal punishING. Death is eternal punishMENT.

Clete did say, and I agree with him, that the flames of the lake of fire may not be literal, but a description of the kind of pain those who ultimately reject God will experience for the rest of eternity.

Is sitting on the fence getting uncomfortable?

They either are, or are not being punished somehow for all eternity. Are you having trouble reading the heavens?

As for the eternity part, what do you think God can do with those whom He has to separate from Himself and those who love Him? When He already sent His own Son to die for them, and they reject His free gift? They clearly don't want to be with Him? What can God do about that? He can't force them to be with Him for the rest of eternity, because it would literally worse for them than separation from Him.

A merciful God could kill them, as He says everywhere, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" not be punished, consciously for all eternity. Death is an eternal punishMENT, where their smoke of their mortal remains rises forever, but they are long dead.

Yes, Hell is FAR FAR WORSE! But in general, Christians today preach a lovey dovey God who forgives everyone, so no one is scared for the safety of their very soul, and ultimately most reject Him.

Bring back the good old hell-fire and damnation preaching.

If more Christians would teach that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and that the unrepentant sinner is at the very bottom of that basket, then I can almost guarantee you more would accept His free gift.

Like Kirk Cameron, the worst style "winning" people to Christ. Ask them if they have ever lied, looked at a woman, gotten angry - making them liars, adulterers, and murderers going to hell.

Have you never noticed that Christ never preached the way you suggest?

You should be witnessing to your unsaved loved one, if you don't want them to end up in the Lake for the rest of eternity. Shame on you for being selfish and not doing everything you can possibly do to bring them to Christ.

Yes, let's blame someone else for another exercising their god-given free will. Maybe we can have a chain of people being dragged by one sinner into hell.

You may have noticed, even on this forum, that some atheists are not easily convinced to believe in God, in spite of, or possibly because of folks like you. Christ did not save Judas - why not blame Him too?

God will not be sitting in the lake of fire for all of eternity having souls brought in and whipping them Himself. You cannot blame God for offering a free gift of eternal life to every human being. And then when one of those humans rejects that gift, you still cannot blame God, because He even sent His only Son to die for that person. Or what, do you think God is sick, that He will force those who don't want to be with Him to live with Him for all of eternity?

You still are one sick puppy for thinking, like Clete, that a "good" God would punish those who don't accept Him, or appreciate Christ's sacrifice, in the fires of hell forever. You don't realise how sick this idea is, and how far it is from what God has planned.

God preaches forgiveness, loving enemies, forgiving those who offend us 70x7 times.
You still have not come out of the sick, Dark-Ages, Spanish Inquisition ideas, which included an ever burning hell, with folks ever-burning consciously in it. And after preaching this, the corrupt clergy would sell indulgences. You are still in the dark ages and need the Reformation to go further than where it stopped.

READ YOUR BIBLE. You obviously cannot read either the heavens or the Bible and come to any idea of a merciful God.

What's burnt up? They won't be given bodies before being cast into the lake.

I suppose next you will tell me that if they do not have teeth, they will be given these so that they can gnash them.

So you think that God will utterly destroy their souls, so that they no longer exist? Not even God can do that, as He placed eternity in our (humanity's) hearts. We are eternal creatures. It would take an infinite amount of effort to destroy just one soul, let alone the trillions of souls who have ultimately rejected God.

You are so in need of an education. Christ, who was one of the YHWH Gods, came to earth and died. If the Father had not resurrected Him, he would have stayed dead. That is why Christ said "To thee I commend my spirit" just before He died.

This is what happens to Satan. Try reading this and believing.

Eze 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Do you know why God says so many times and in so many different ways that he UTTERLY destroys the wicked? Because folks like you do not get it the first time.

The logical reason for God to separate those who reject Him is that if He were to allow them into Heaven, heaven would become Hell, it would be like what we have today here on earth, but much worse.

That is missing the point. A loving God just kills them - does not torment them forever. Your idea that God does this is MONSTROUS. It shows you are not qualified to speak of "good".

blah...blah...blah...

Iouae, which Testament speaks more about Hell, Hades, etc? The Old or the New?

If you want to talk "hell", tartaros, hades, gehennah, I will happily do so.

Gehena (derived from the valley of Hinnom) was the city dump where garbage was thrown, where the fire never went out, and maggots were ever present (never died) and where the DEAD CORPSES WERE THROWN AND EATEN UP.

The people are as eternal as the maggots feasting there. Neither maggots, not humans are eternal beings unless God gives them eternal life.

 

[iouae]

The idea that humans have an immortal soul...here is where it started...

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God warns Adam and Eve that if they sin, they will "surely die".
Satan tells them, "You can't die, you have an immortal soul" or "ye shall not surely die".

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death, because, unless you are given the gift of eternal life, you will stay dead.

Satan makes out that you don't need that gift, because "ye shall not surely die".
In every Satan-infested culture there is the belief that humans already come with the gift of eternal life, that they have an "immortal soul" or a "spirit in man" or some eternal essence that automatically bypasses death. We don't. We bought that snake-oil idea from Satan, since Eden.

I would bet that this was the first lie that Lucifer sold the holy angels, when Lucifer persuaded them to leave heaven with him. He convinced them that "ye shall not surely die", that they did not need God to sustain them. After all they are spirit beings, and spirit beings cannot die. LIE!!!

Nothing in the universe, material or spirit exists without God sustaining it.

Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

But no God, we shall not "surely die" and we are not really dust. We have a spirit essence, so "we shall not surely die". The Serpent told us so, and would he lie?

The "immortal soul" false doctrine goes along with the "burn forever in hell" false doctrine.

 

[Clete]

I've changed my mind. Vowels is going to blaspheme God with or without my participation in the thread. I might as well prod him along....


Vowels,

Is mercy a good thing?

If so, does God's arbitrary fiat command/action define mercy, according to your religion?

How about justice? Is that good?

Does God's arbitrary fiat command define justice?

If so, on what basis would you object to God torturing you and your kids for eternity?




Clete

 

[Stripe]

Vowels

:rotfl:

 

[Clete]

Vowels,

Define what it means to die according to your religion.

 

[iouae]

I've changed my mind. Vowels is going to blaspheme God with or without my participation in the thread. I might as well prod him along....


Vowels,

Is mercy a good thing?

Yes

If so, does God's action, according to your religion, define mercy God's arbitrary fiat command/action?

English please.

How about justice? Is that good?

Yes

Does God's arbitrary fiat command define justice?

In the end, if God's will defines "good", it's up to God if He wants to punish sin (which in many cases He turns a blind eye to or extends grace) and how He is going to punish (and in many cases He is inconsistent, and may extend grace). It's like being a parent. Different strokes for different folks. And like being a parent, rules are very arbitrary.

He gives laws to mankind, which fall far short of true justice, as language falls short in general. And God's justice is long term. Hitler may have thought he got away with it, but if Hitler loses out on eternal life, that is punishment in the long run. No torturing Hitler needed for justice to be served.

If so, on what basis would you object to God torturing you and your kids for eternity?

Read my previous post to JR, or read your Bible. God is not the Spanish Inquisition kind of God.

You never could explain the "logic" or "reason" to punish someone who is never given a chance to repent in hell, and their punishment is no use as an example to others, since the saints are in heaven. Do you see how you fail by your own definition of God's good being "logical".

If God were to torture folks for all eternity in hell, knowing it will do them no good as far as repentance is concerned, since they cannot escape hell, and it would do nobody else good, since they are already in heaven, then there is only one other "logical" reason God would torture folks forever in hell...

That reason would be that God is sadistic, and vengeful - everything He preaches against. Thus He is a hypocrite also. And if inflicting needless pain on others is "good", He would be the exact opposite of what I believe Him to be.

 

[iouae]

Vowels,

Define what it means to die according to your religion.

According to my religion, which derives from the Bible, not the fallen church of the Dark Ages, death means cessation of life and consciousness. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...

Ecc 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

 

[iouae]

I was sitting thinking about how many things have “coincidentally” come together to make me and you happy.

Here I sit having food and raiment and contentment. The weather is pleasant, and the climate where I live is mild. There are no natural disasters around, and I can hear my neighbours laughing and entertaining guests around a barbecue. We all live in a pleasant suburb, with low crime, and I have a nice garden and a friendly cat.

The house keeps the climate pleasant, and electricity and water are brought to me. I have the energy equivalent of 1000 slaves working for me. I have foods from around the world, news from around the world, and the internet to communicate around the world. There is a light switch, and I have a remote, with which I can summon music from around the world.

Then there are family and friends around, and we live in a culture and time where all are free, and nobody is enslaved. Everyone can express their opinion, unsolicited and uninformed or not. Men and women and children have rights unlike any other time in history. Even animals have rights. The environment is protected. I can visit any country of the world by going to the travel channel, or I can get into a car or plane and go there. And getting there, strangers will generally be welcomed and not treated with suspicion. I even have rights in a foreign land.

I live on a planet with 6000 mammal species and then there are the birds, fish, reptiles, and invertebrates. All of these are reasonably well behaved and I can walk around outside in safety, while admiring the diversity. I am surrounded by a Christian culture, where altruism and good manners are the norm. In effect, I have a living standard not far from that of Solomon, except I don’t have that unnecessary gold. I have electronic slaves I can just switch off when not in use. I don’t have to feed them or argue with them to get them to work. I have refrigeration, and medicine, and all the interesting things which science and technology contribute to enjoyment. Knowledge is there on Wikipedia or Google.

I have only the capacity to describe 0.01% of the blessings surrounding me every second of every day.

To take this away from a person, by death, is punishment enough for God.

Death is justice served. The wages of sin is death.

God does not, on top of death, have to give folks “immortal souls” so that he can punish them more after death.

 

[Clete]

According to my religion, which derives from the Bible, not the fallen church of the Dark Ages, death means cessation of life and consciousness. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing...

Ecc 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

That isn't an answer. Of course you're not alive if your dead. DUH!

What does it mean?

What, for example, did it mean when Jesus died and then rose from the dead?

Same question for Lazarus.

What does your religion teach is the the difference between physical death and spiritual death?

 

[iouae]

That isn't an answer. Of course you're not alive if your dead. DUH!

What does it mean?

What, for example, did it mean when Jesus died and then rose from the dead?

Same question for Lazarus.

What does your religion teach is the the difference between physical death and spiritual death?

Because you (mistakenly) believe that man has an immortal soul, or spiritual essence to him which survives death, you ask the difference between physical and spiritual death.

There is only one kind of death, and that is physical death.

The gift of God is eternal life. That is when you get a spirit body, at the resurrection.

The incorrigibly wicked are raised as mortal, physical humans to be judged before God's throne, when the books will be opened, and judgment pronounced against them. Then they, consisting only of their mortal selves will be cast alive into the lake of fire, or molten lava, and consumed in seconds. Thus they will be reduced to ash and smoke. This Judgment Day is still future. Till then, the dead "sleep" unconscious.

When Christ and Lazarus were dead, they too "slept" and were unconscious.

 

[Clete]

Read my previous post to JR, or read your Bible. God is not the Spanish Inquisition kind of God.

No, I'm not reading your other posts. I asked a question, answer me or don't.

You never could explain the "logic" or "reason" to punish someone who is never given a chance to repent in hell, and their punishment is no use as an example to others, since the saints are in heaven. Do you see how you fail by your own definition of God's good being "logical".

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
I told you that God is just and that whatever Hell turns out to be will be justice for those who find themselves there. The fact is that there is very little information about Hell in the bible. We are told that it is an eternal fire and Jesus put the words, "I am in agony in this fire." in the mouth of a named character in a parable He told, which is consistent with the multiple times the gospels record Jesus saying, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

There is,, I believe, some question about whether the fire is an actual flaming fire like what you have when you burn something. I suspect that it is an analogy but I would not be willing to be dogmatic about that because Jesus was comfortable enough with calling it fire so who am I to argue. What we know is that Hell is an extremely bad place to find yourself in and that it's what we all deserve.

Further, I am not God. I don't get to decide what is or is not just when it comes to the after life. I don't have the slightest idea what is involved in such judgments. I have no context, being a descendant of fallen Adam with less than 5 decades of life under my belt, within which to build the conceptual framework needed to make such an assessment. I'm flatly unqualified to render an opinion as to what would constitute justice for those who have sinned against God and found themselves before Him without a Savior, except that God's word says it has to do with an eternal fire. The same goes for you, by the way, which is what makes your comments on this thread blasphemy.

I do know that what it cost to make my salvation possible was the death of God Himself and so it's not a stretch at all to say that the stakes couldn't be higher than they are.

If God were to torture folks for all eternity in hell, knowing it will do them no good as far as repentance is concerned, since they cannot escape hell, and it would do nobody else good, since they are already in heaven, then there is only one other "logical" reason God would torture folks forever in hell...

That reason would be that God is sadistic, and vengeful - everything He preaches against. Thus He is a hypocrite also. And if inflicting needless pain on others is "good", He would be the exact opposite of what I believe Him to be.

So what do you care?

According to your religion, whatever God does is right, moral, righteous, just and good! So what's the problem for you if God is a hypocritical sadist?


God, of course, is not a hypocritical sadist and even if you're saying so wasn't in direct conflict with your system of ethics, you don't have 1% of the information you would need to make such an assessment in the first place! And, incidentally, you would literally have earned my fist in your teeth with this last comment if we were talking in person. I genuinely cannot comprehend how it is possible for anyone to utter such things. You will give an account for every idle word your speak (or type), Vowels. You should be more careful. Even if you can't follow your own logic, God certainly can and will hold you to account for it.

Look, here's something for you to think about. Maybe, just maybe, sinning against God is a much bigger deal than you think it is. Maybe we're way farther short of the perfection God demands than we think we are. Maybe we're all going to be completely amazed that God didn't end this whole mess on the very first Friday the 13th (that might well be the day Adam and Eve at of the Tree).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[iouae]

We look at serial killers who do unspeakable things to their victims before finally killing them and we are repulsed by this.

And I know the spirit behind these serial killers - that being Satan the Devil.

He is the kind of Being who would enjoy inspiring the serial killer to be sadistic, and would enjoy watching it too. If Satan could get children to pull the wings off butterflies, sit on kittens, and break puppies legs, Satan would rejoice in this too.

Yet, church going Christians think nothing of God torturing, worse than any serial killer, folks in hell, for all eternity. Thus they ascribe the spirit of Satan to God. This is blasphemy, and a leftover from the Dark Ages.

If Satan had the power, no doubt he would create immortal beings so that he could watch them slow-roast for the rest of eternity. Thank God Satan does not have power to give life.

 

[iouae]

No, I'm not reading your other posts. I asked a question, answer me or don't.


I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
I told you that God is just and that whatever Hell turns out to be will be justice for those who find themselves there. The fact is that there is very little information about Hell in the bible.
Clete

You did from the start express some reservation about hell being a place where folks are slow roasted for all eternity. I will give you that. You are better than many church going Christians who are happy and convinced that the wicked are slow roasting in hell.

 

[iouae]

No, I'm not reading your other posts. I asked a question, answer me or don't.
Clete

Since you love logic so much...
If God were bound by a set of rules, then He would not be God.

So nothing stops God from torturing me or my loved ones for all eternity in hell, just for the fun of it.

So I repeat my answer. I read the Bible, and see God as a loving, non-sadistic Father who created His children, and loves them so much, and invested so much time and emotional energy into them, that He, the Father sent His only begotten and beloved Son to die for us, and save us from our mess.

It is this investment of having His Son die, and die so cruelly, which blows my mind, and convinces me of God's love and commitment to us, His children. And the Bible shows that the Father allowed Christ to suffer this cruelty, to save us from pain and suffering and death. So I have faith in the Bible that God is who He says He is.

And I look at this beautiful creation, and see that a lovely God created a lovely world.

 

[Clete]

Because you (mistakenly) believe that man has an immortal soul, or spiritual essence to him which survives death, you ask the difference between physical and spiritual death.

There is only one kind of death, and that is physical death.

The gift of God is eternal life. That is when you get a spirit body, at the resurrection.

The incorrigibly wicked are raised as mortal, physical humans to be judged before God's throne, when the books will be opened, and judgment pronounced against them. Then they, consisting only of their mortal selves will be cast alive into the lake of fire, or molten lava, and consumed in seconds. Thus they will be reduced to ash and smoke. This Judgment Day is still future. Till then, the dead "sleep" unconscious.

When Christ and Lazarus were dead, they too "slept" and were unconscious.

Well, like I said, you ARE NOT a Christian. I haven't the faintest idea how you filter the bible so as to come up with this stupidity. Why bother with the bible in the first place? Why not just make something completely up from scratch? I mean, you might as well! Where's the profit in the pretense of Christianity? Christianity is simply the particular brand of sheep's clothing you chose to wear, isn't it?

Next question...

Why, according to your religion, was it necessary for Jesus to die?

Or don't you believe that either? It would be more consistent if you denied the necessity of Christ's death. It seems you ought to believe that God could have simply decided that certain people are going to go to heaven (for whatever reason). I mean, if your god can do anything at all and remain just and good, then why couldn't your god just say, "Hey, you four guys over there! Put the crack pipe and the bloody knife down and come hang out with me in heaven for a while." and let the rest of us all disappear in a puff of smoke?

Clete

 

[iouae]

Further, I am not God. I don't get to decide what is or is not just when it comes to the after life. I don't have the slightest idea what is involved in such judgments. I have no context, being a descendant of fallen Adam with less than 5 decades of life under my belt, within which to build the conceptual framework needed to make such an assessment. I'm flatly unqualified to render an opinion as to what would constitute justice for those who have sinned against God and found themselves before Him without a Savior, except that God's word says it has to do with an eternal fire. The same goes for you, by the way, which is what makes your comments on this thread blasphemy.

You love that "b" word, don't you?

From shouting the odds, to suddenly you are not qualified to give an opinion on God punishing folks in hell, reminds me of this...

to...

 

[Clete]

Since you love logic so much...
If God were bound by a set of rules, then He would not be God.

He is not bound by any set of rules. He CAN do whatever He wants. What is bound is the meaning of words. If God were to do something evil then He would become evil, by definition. That's how words work. They don't work unless they mean something. See?

So nothing stops God from torturing me or my loved ones for all eternity in hell, just for the fun of it.

Your trivialization of God's motives is unfounded and blasphemous. No one but you has suggested that it's for the fun of it.

So I repeat my answer. I read the Bible, and see God as a loving, non-sadistic Father who created His children, and loves them so much, and invested so much time and emotional energy into them, that He, the Father sent His only begotten and beloved Son to die for us, and save us from our mess.

Sounds nice but it's all meaningless.

Love, like every other moral concept in your religion, must necessarily be defined by your god's arbitrary fiat command/action. In other words, according to you, if your god hadn't send Jesus to die and had simply doomed the whole race to eternal torment and agony, that would, by your own definition, be good!

So I ask again, what do you care?

It is this investment of having His Son die, and die so cruelly, which blows my mind, and convinces me of God's love and commitment to us, His children. And the Bible shows that the Father allowed Christ to suffer this cruelty, to save us from pain and suffering and death. So I have faith in the Bible that God is who He says He is.

Blind faith. The whole bible could be a lie and you'd have no way to know it. Nor would you have any basis for being upset about it because if God lies, lying is good - right?

And I look at this beautiful creation, and see that a lovely God created a lovely world.

This is testimony against your doctrine, not for it. An amoral god such as yours could not have created this universe.

Clete

 

[Clete]

You love that "b" word, don't you?

From shouting the odds, to suddenly you are not qualified to give an opinion on God punishing folks in hell, reminds me of this...

Are you drunk?

 

[iouae]

Next question...

Why, according to your religion, was it necessary for Jesus to die?

It wasn't necessary for Christ to die. The whole faith chapter of Hebrews 11 has people like Moses and David saved before Christ died.

God chose to have Christ die. It was one way out of an infinite number of possibilities that God could have chosen to achieved His goal of having children. He chose to have the apple of His eye die. I would have done otherwise.

And, Christ learned obedience by what He suffered.
So the relationship between Word YHWH and God changed from being more like equals, to being more like a hierarchy. This was necessary if God were making thousands of spirit sons, that there be a hierarchy, and that Christ would set the example.

But if you have found the milk of the word hard to swallow, the meat might choke you.