God made the wicked !

G

Gary K

New member
Banned
beloved57 said:
The Jesus in the scripture is also God, so He made the wicked for the day of evil! He made them vessels of wrath and fits them for everlasting destruction

2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
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Stop looking for plausibility and start searching for truth. Thoroughly search the life of Jesus for evidence that He would create just so he could destroy. If you cannot find that evidence it is evidence that you have a fatally flawed theology.
 
C

clefty

New member
ffreeloader said:
Yup. Beloved57 understood that too, but he also knew he couldn't defeat my scriptural reasoning, so he avoided answering my questions. That's why he said the conversation was over. He's interested in plausibility rather than truth. or he would never make the kind of arguments he makes. I reject arguments based upon plausibility rather than a search made for truth. Why? Because only truth gives us a solid footing in life, eternal life. Anything less is worthless. Why? Because Jesus is truth, and only our love relationship with Jesus, i.e. truth, brings us eternal life. There is no other route to life. Only through Jesus, i.e. truth, can we apprehend eternal life. Jesus said two things about this.



We cannot know Jesus if we believe He is other than who He says, and proved through His life here, if we believe false testimony about Him. Why? Because false testimony about Him distorts who He is. If we believe that false testimony we don't know who the Father or the Son really are, and eternal life is based upon knowing who both individuals really are. Anything else is idolatry.



What Jesus is in reality saying here is that if we observe the life and character of Jesus we will know who, exactly, the Father is. In other words, if we look at Christ's life we know and understand who the Father is. So, if we don't see psychopathic behavior in the life of Christ such as the desire to create with no other reason than to destroy we know that kind of behavior doesn't exist in the personality and character of the Father or the Son. To say that Jesus is not the outward manifestation of the Godhead, in character and behavior, is to deny the deity of Jesus. Both are fatal errors to make.

Now, anyone who claims that God is the kind of psychopath who loves to create just so he can destroy has to show that from the life of Jesus while here on this earth. The problem for that claim is that we see the opposite in the life of Jesus. He lived a life of self-sacrifice for the blessing of all people around Him. He showed no desire to destroy even the Sadducees and Pharisees. He poured out is life for even them. He offered himself for them. He said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And He cried over Jerusalem saying,

And this is the person who created most people only to destroy them? That's such a divided mind that it could only be described as psychotic. And there is no way the Godhead is psychopathic.
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Job the oldest book records this Free Will dilemma...as resolved

But was Job created just to be tortured? Or was he created then tortured?

The accuser merely claimed Job obeyed because he was bought...protected...thus no free will...and Yah is not worthy of worship...

Not even Satan was bold enough to claim Job was obedient only because He determined Job to do so...Job had no choice...but was merely made to be tortured...

That diabolical accusation developed later....

Imagine knowing you are loved only because you created them to do so and they had no option but to...what kind of love is that?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ffreeloader said:
Stop looking for plausibility and start searching for truth. Thoroughly search the life of Jesus for evidence that He would create just so he could destroy. If you cannot find that evidence it is evidence that you have a fatally flawed theology.
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Is that all you can say? More evasion!
 
G

Gary K

New member
Banned
I am getting a kick out of this thread.

God created the wicked? Really? That is your major theological point? David said we are shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. Or do you believe you were born with a different spiritual nature than David? You were born wicked. Everyone but Jesus has been born wicked. And to you this fact means God created the wicked to destroy them. That means God created all of us just to destroy us.

What's the evidence for the above?
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
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No one is righteous. And did Paul say he was righteous? How did he describe his own spiritual condition?

1Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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Hmmmm. Jesus came to save the wicked, i.e. sinners. That is Paul's testimony. Also notice that Paul uses the present tense to describe his own spiritual condition. His is the chief of sinners while he is alive. And he said the following about himself.
1Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
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Now if Paul was no longer part of the wicked why does he have die to self and be born again daily? Paul says over and over that he is sinful, i.e. wicked. The Bible tells us that we are also wicked. Why? Because Adam transmitted his wickedness to us. We are born with our human nature in rebellion against God. So if being wicked disqualifies someone from God's grace because God created the wicked just to destroy them there is no possibility of salvation for any of us.

There are so many holes in your theology it would be kind of funny if it wasn't so sad. The distortion of the character of God by clothing Him with the attributes of the devil is really a tragic thing. Do you even begin to understand how many sinners look at your picture of God and turn away from Him because of it?
 
G

Gary K

New member
Banned
beloved57 said:
Is that all you can say? More evasion!
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Riiiight. You're the one that answered all my questions..... Talk about evasion..... You're guilty of it as I have answered your questions multiple times. You? Not at all. I've seen these "debate" tactics so many times they bore me.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Amen Sister. And the wicked He made don't have a chance at Salvation. They are being reserved for the day of wrath job 21:30
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Rev 6:16-17

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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Exactly Brother, the wicked non-elect have been foreordained to condemnation Jude 1:4, and given over to a reprobate mind Rom. 1:28.
God Purposed to fit them more and more for the day of destruction.
 
C

clefty

New member
Nanja said:
Exactly Brother, the wicked non-elect have been foreordained to condemnation Jude 1:4,
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Hand on there...the wicked are ALSO ELECTED...but to do evil...

So IF it was all foreordained how could any of the saints be deceived?

Verse 3 Why such diligence and concern exhorting to contend for the faith if it is ALL foreordained? LOL

Verse 5 He reminds though He saved the people out of Egypt He destroyed them who did NOT believe...
6 even angels LEFT their own habitation did NOT keep their proper domain...you would think a proper domain would be FOREORDAINED...
7 Sodom And Gomorrah gave themselves over...and are THEN set forth as examples...they were NOT MADE to suffer...
19 sensual persons cause divisions HOW if all is predetermined?
21 KEEP YOURSELVES...why? if it was already established...
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire...why? He MADE them to be in the fire no?

But you wish to ADD to the word that He created them to do so...they couldn't NOT DO what they were elected to do...

and given over to a reprobate mind Rom. 1:28.
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good grief...really? He gives them over = He creates them to be?

You completely reject:

25 who exchanged the truth for the lie...did you catch that now? THEY EXCHANGED TRUTH FOR LIES...
26 is why He gave them up...because even their women EXCHANGED the natural use for what is against nature...
27 men LEAVING the natural use of women...
28 did NOT LIKE TO RETAIN Yah in their knowledge...IS WHY He gave them over...

God Purposed to fit them more and more for the day of destruction.
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right so according to your indolence...He creates ALL to do as He creates them to do...so some of them to do evil...which then can not even tempt those who were created to do right...

since both evil and good are foreordained...

Reminds me of verse 30 inventors of evil things...
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ffreeloader said:
I am getting a kick out of this thread.

God created the wicked? Really? That is your major theological point? David said we are shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. Or do you believe you were born with a different spiritual nature than David? You were born wicked. Everyone but Jesus has been born wicked. And to you this fact means God created the wicked to destroy them. That means God created all of us just to destroy us.

What's the evidence for the above?

No one is righteous. And did Paul say he was righteous? How did he describe his own spiritual condition?



Hmmmm. Jesus came to save the wicked, i.e. sinners. That is Paul's testimony. Also notice that Paul uses the present tense to describe his own spiritual condition. His is the chief of sinners while he is alive. And he said the following about himself.


Now if Paul was no longer part of the wicked why does he have die to self and be born again daily? Paul says over and over that he is sinful, i.e. wicked. The Bible tells us that we are also wicked. Why? Because Adam transmitted his wickedness to us. We are born with our human nature in rebellion against God. So if being wicked disqualifies someone from God's grace because God created the wicked just to destroy them there is no possibility of salvation for any of us.

There are so many holes in your theology it would be kind of funny if it wasn't so sad. The distortion of the character of God by clothing Him with the attributes of the devil is really a tragic thing. Do you even begin to understand how many sinners look at your picture of God and turn away from Him because of it?
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Jesus didn't come to save all sinners, only the elect!
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ffreeloader said:
Riiiight. You're the one that answered all my questions..... Talk about evasion..... You're guilty of it as I have answered your questions multiple times. You? Not at all. I've seen these "debate" tactics so many times they bore me.
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You have evaded my question multiple times and steered into a rabbit trail. I had to answer my own question!
 
C

clefty

New member
beloved57 said:
freeloader


No it doesn't mean that. Some sinners He made to have mercy on because of their sinfulness!
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wait wut?

so He creates them to be sinners and then has mercy because of their sinfulness?

what does having mercy on them mean?

Saves them or kills them less horribly?
 
G

Gary K

New member
Banned
beloved57 said:
Jesus didn't come to save all sinners, only the elect!
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Who says? Not Jesus.
Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
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Obviously you have no idea what mercy actually is. Which also means you have no idea what justice is for you cannot have mercy without justice, and your theology denies the very meaning of justice.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
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Jesus mission was to seek and save the lost, i.e the wicked. You deny this entire truth for, according to you, the lost cannot be saved for God ordained them to be lost and destroyed. Look at how differently Jesus looked at the lost.

Luke 15: 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 ¶And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
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Your theology reminds me of the attitude of the Pharisees. Oh, those wicked. They don't deserve attention or salvation. Why are you wasting time on them? They aren't worth saving. In fact, that is your exact attitude towards the lost sheep. It's screw you. You were born to die. You cannot be saved. You're not worthy to be saved. Pharisee.... Or should I just equate you with the prodigal's elder brother, as you say anyone who leaves the fold was never meant to be a part of the fold and has no part of it again. Too bad Jesus' entire parable proves how wrong you are for the father kills the fatted calf to have a feast to celebrate the return of the prodigal.

How great is the love of God. He's not like you wantl to make Him to appear. He is love. He is justice. He is mercy. And you portray Him as a psychopath who creates so He can destroy. And you call that love. A sinful human being apart from God can demonstrate greater love than that.

You know what I call love? God reaching out to me to save me after I dedicated my life to self-destruction. I've seen His love proven over and over again.

Matthew 18: 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
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2Corinthians 4: 1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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Like I've been saying all along. You clothe God with the attributes of the devil for it is the devil who blinds the minds of the lost.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ffreeloader said:
Who says? Not Jesus.

Obviously you have no idea what mercy actually is. Which also means you have no idea what justice is for you cannot have mercy without justice, and your theology denies the very meaning of justice.



Jesus mission was to seek and save the lost, i.e the wicked. You deny this entire truth for, according to you, the lost cannot be saved for God ordained them to be lost and destroyed. Look at how differently Jesus looked at the lost.



Your theology reminds me of the attitude of the Pharisees. Oh, those wicked. They don't deserve attention or salvation. Why are you wasting time on them? They aren't worth saving. In fact, that is your exact attitude towards the lost sheep. It's screw you. You were born to die. You cannot be saved. You're not worthy to be saved. Pharisee.... Or should I just equate you with the prodigal's elder brother, as you say anyone who leaves the fold was never meant to be a part of the fold and has no part of it again. Too bad Jesus' entire parable proves how wrong you are for the father kills the fatted calf to have a feast to celebrate the return of the prodigal.

How great is the love of God. He's not like you wantl to make Him to appear. He is love. He is justice. He is mercy. And you portray Him as a psychopath who creates so He can destroy. And you call that love. A sinful human being apart from God can demonstrate greater love than that.

You know what I call love? God reaching out to me to save me after I dedicated my life to self-destruction. I've seen His love proven over and over again.





Like I've been saying all along. You clothe God with the attributes of the devil for it is the devil who blinds the minds of the lost.
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Who did Jesus specifically say He died for here ? Jn 10:11,15
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
ffreeloader said:
Hogwash!
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They're called vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

That's because they are sinful and wicked like the vessels of wrath He created to not be merciful to, and condemn them to eternal punishment!
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
freeloader

Really ! He created them to in justice condemn them to eternal destruction for their sins !
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Exactly Brother, as stated here:

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable,
and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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