God and Evil

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
This dude had some wisdom, gained through experiential knowledge.

I was digging out my potatoes last week and whenever I do, the portion of scripture comes to me; "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..."

And yet I still call it a garden.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
I was digging out my potatoes last week and whenever I do, the portion of scripture comes to me; "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..."

And yet I still call it a garden.

Yep and every time I get stung by one, I think.......

Those dang things belong in the fire.

Years of burning wood to stay warm, taught me, trees with thorns make for the hottest and longest lasting fires.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I've consistently found George Affleck to be insightful and a lover of truth and of God.

Unfortunately October23 has no idea what this thread is about because he did not read the first post with comprehension. He insists on riding his hobby-horse in an attempt to hijack the conversation.

If he realizes his mistake and apologizes, he will be forgiven.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
MrDeets also needs to answer this question:

How much evil (suffering) would need to be absent from the world for him to not make the comment he made? Indeed, how would the world need to be organized for atheists/unbelievers to delete this arguement from their stockpile of objections?

In the end all succumb to death, often with much suffering. Would God be real to them if death was eliminated? Or just the suffering part?

Because we are expected to give a specific answer to the problem of evil, I will accept no answer to this question that is not also specific.
 

PureX

Well-known member
I'm reposting my response because it seems to have gotten lost in the heat of the moment. And I'm wondering is there are any comments.

The solution requires that we put on our "humility shoes" as well as it does our "thinking caps".

First, we need to recognize that what we are labeling "good" and "evil" are basically conditions being determined by our own needs and desires. What we call "good" is generally whatever is good for us, while what we call "evil" is generally whatever is not good for us. And so for us to blame "evil" on God we must be assuming that it's God's responsibility to see to it that existence serves our own needs and desires, exclusively. Which is both illogical, and quite selfish.

So that once we face this, and let go of this illogical and selfish assumption, we will find ourselves confronting a whole different paradigm. A paradigm in which God is the God of all that exists, and therefor the servant of all creation (if God is a 'servant' at all), and not just ourselves. And that being the case, God would enable the virus that kills us just as God enables us to kill other life forms so that we can survive. And the question then becomes why God would have created a universe in which life forms must destroy each other to maintain their own existence, and why this destruction causes us to suffer, so.

And the truth is, that we humans simply don't have the information needed to answer that question. Maybe life cannot exist any other way? Maybe God wants us to experience danger, and suffering, and finality, so that we can become fully cognizant of this gift of being that we have been given? Or maybe it's about generating maximum variety within the experience of living: everything must pass away so that the next thing can manifest? Or maybe it's about fairness, that all things get their chance at being, and at the loss of being?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else. And this brings up a basic fact of human existence: that we humans cannot have ALL THE ANSWERS. We just can't. And if we don't like that, too bad. Because we're going to have to live with it, regardless.

Or maybe God was never our servant as we presume. After all, there is no reason why God would be. In which case it's foolish for us to blame God for not being and doing what God is not, and does not, do. That would be like blaming the weather for being the weather, or for ignoring us in the process.

In any case, my answer to the question of "why does God allow evil?" is that it's a childish question. It's immature in that it's both selfish and unconsidered. And once we grow beyond this immaturity the question no longer really matters to us. Because we will have come to understand and accept our own humanity such as it is, and God's mystery such as it is. And then we can choose for ourselves how we will relate to God and existence, from there.

Humility is the key. And perhaps that is the answer to our question, after all … we suffer until we accept that we are not God's judge. Nor God's equals. And the sooner we accept this and quit blaming God, the sooner we can get on with the business of lessening our own suffering for ourselves, and lessening the suffering of others in that process.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I think we are "made in God's image" in that we are free to determine our own spiritual natures. And in that we have the capacity for unconditional love. Which does seem to me to be a common religious message all around the world. (Not that humanity's religions are necessarily the gauge of any or all truth.)

Boris,

The Biblical answer to this lies in the idea of Paradise Lost. God created the universe perfect and Adam in His image. This first man, Adam, disobeyed God and thereby sold himself and his kin into slavery to Satan. With the entrance of sin death entered and in conjunction with God's curse upon the land (environment - as PPS delineates), Satan runs the show, to the extent God allows, until Christ's death.

At this point Satan becomes legally guilty of murder for causing the death of one who is not owned by him (Jesus was not genealogically related to Adam and therefore not subject to Satan). Satan is put in prison on death row pending execution and faith in God's Son translates those who believe in Him into His Kingdom and under His protection.

To say that God did not create everything perfect to begin with is not the Biblical explanation.


Later Note: I meant to give this answer to Boris but it is just as good here. I agree with Purex about this being primarily a spiritual "image".
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Do you mean to say that Europe and whites have better lives because they are Christian ? What about blacks and others ?

Aw I wish Christians would wise up, prosperity is inbuilt in the gospel, it IS the good news.

Jesus came into Galilee preaching "Repent and believe the good news for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand"

Every single Jew knew what He was saying, it is the great Jewish hope, the age of superabundant prosperity for everyone, not just the Jews [although they were expected to rule in this age] but nations would beat their sword into PLOUGHSHARES and their spears into PRUNING HOOKS, in other words harvesting implements.

Understand that in that age the curse that God pronounced upon the ground because of sin would be lifted....the earth would once more yield of itself.

We know that this age has been interrupted but for the church THOSE PROMISES ARE OURS in Christ.

Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you...all what things? all the things that the nations seek after.

The idea is simple God super blesses the church and through the church the world. It is part and parcel of the gospel.

But around the first century ad the church went "spiritual" became a heavenly people only. This new "spiritual" church is what grew into the Catholic church....there are reasons for this, why this happened.

Of course the pardon of sins was the most important part of the gospel, the new birth...salvation. It is "seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness" but strangely enough even this aspect of the gospel got clouded over too and got buried under sacramentalism and ritualism and clericalism so the church even lost it's spiritual aspect.

We had a reformation

But the reformation my friends as wonderful as it was only recovered part of the truth. All these truths are in the gospel still, they are still there in Paul's letters. But just as "righteousness by faith" was there in Pauls doctrine for more than a thousand years and people's eyes didn't see it to understand it so a great many truths are there in the bible today and our eyes skate over them.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Notice that Affleck has still not responded to my post or my Bible verses .

Let us see how he responds to the Bible ....how will he interpret it ?

All he can do is get PERSONAL and Question my Comprehension.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately October23 has no idea what this thread is about because he did not read the first post with comprehension. He insists on riding his hobby-horse in an attempt to hijack the conversation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE IS HIS OP WHICH I INCLUDED IN MY LAST POST.

WHAT IS NOT TO UNDERSTAND ????????????

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

PureX

Well-known member
Boris,

The Biblical answer to this lies in the idea of Paradise Lost. God created the universe perfect and Adam in His image. This first man, Adam, disobeyed God and thereby sold himself and his kin into slavery to Satan. With the entrance of sin death entered and in conjunction with God's curse upon the land (environment - as PPS delineates), Satan runs the show, to the extent God allows, until Christ's death.

At this point Satan becomes legally guilty of murder for causing the death of one who is not owned by him (Jesus was not genealogically related to Adam and therefore not subject to Satan). Satan is put in prison on death row pending execution and faith in God's Son translates those who believe in Him into His Kingdom and under His protection.

To say that God did not create everything perfect to begin with is not the Biblical explanation.
I don't agree with your interpretation of the story of original sin, so I don't agree with your presumptions about God.

Here is my understanding of the Genesis story in the Bible:

Man's original sin was hubris. It was our presuming ourselves to be God's equals. And thus presuming that we possess sufficient knowledge of good and evil to stand in judgment of God, and in judgment of God's Creation, as if we were their Creator, ourselves. And then, through this false assumption, we both proclaim what is good and evil, and demand that God be held responsible for it!

But in truth, we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil because it was forbidden to us, and what God forbids, stays forbidden. So our judgments are based on our own self-centered presumption that Creation was intended to serve us, as if were are gods, ourselves, and that God owes us an answer for our not being served by Creation as we presume we ought to be.

Thus, the whole question of God and evil is just another manifestation of mankind's original sin; the sin of hubris. And so the solution to that question in not that God provides us an answer, but that we humble ourselves, and admit that the question, itself, is both immature, and selfish.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
HERE IS A FURTHER EXTRAPOLATION FROM AFFLECK RE: THE OP.

The Only Sold answer being the Kingdom of God in this case.

Because you have to REMOVE the Main cause of Suffering which is

the One who HATES Mankind - Satan who presently has Eternal Life .

You can also add man's Selfishness to that list of conundrums

because the Non Believing Sodom and Gomorrah were probably highly organized cities

as is New York, San Francisco and Toronto where I live and the Atheists and others

are still not satisfied with the Hate Laws that we have here and therefore,

the answer is that NO amount of suffering can be Eliminated because they

are never Satisfied .
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MrDeets also needs to answer this question:

How much evil (suffering) would need to be absent from the world for him to not make the comment he made? Indeed, how would the world need to be organized for atheists/unbelievers to delete this arguement from their stockpile of objections?

In the end all succumb to death, often with much suffering. Would God be real to them if death was eliminated? Or just the suffering part?

Because we are expected to give a specific answer to the problem of evil, I will accept no answer to this question that is not also specific.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Amen....much better than the idea that He creates evil.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Amen....much better than the idea that He creates evil.
Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Grape Kool-Aid.

You kids crack me up.

Y'all remind me of little kids tryin' to play grown up scenarios.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Grape Kool-Aid.

You kids crack me up.

Y'all remind me of little kids tryin' to play grown up scenarios.

You're the one sitting there staring at your computer and laughing. That's what my five year old grandson does. ;)


If you think you're man enough....jump in and give us your two cents worth. I've already seen some of your attempts, but they sound the same as this last comment of yours. :juggle:
 

Zeke

Well-known member
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

You want dead letter 2Cor 3:6 input? About the none observable kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21 that takes place within the conscience where the outward performance of the letter of the law didn't deal with the inward thoughts, the spiritual law deals with them which puts a kink in the theology and dogmas of men, which is the evil that deceives the mind.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
That God exists is undeniable.

That God is perfect is undeniable.

God created all that exists in the universe ex nihilo.

God sustains all that exists continually with His power.

Morally evil acts exist.

God can prevent morally evil acts.

That God does not prevent all morally evil acts means our perfect God necessarily has a perfectly moral acceptable reason for not preventing all morally evil acts.

Accordingly, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

That we created creatures do not understand why God actively wills to permit morally evil acts gives no warrant to His created moral creatures that would require God to enter the Dock and give an account of Himself beyond what God has revealed (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Excellent post AMR.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Matthew 5:45

The God of Jesus plays no favorites:

"The Father makes his sun to shine on both the good AND the evil and sends his rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike."
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
You're the one sitting there staring at your computer and laughing. That's what my five year old grandson does. ;)


If you think you're man enough....jump in and give us your two cents worth. I've already seen some of your attempts, but they sound the same as this last comment of yours. :juggle:

How yuh figger?

Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit

Guess the English shoulda left out create?

Functional.......

Adam was a creature subject to vanity.

He was created that way.

Adam followed Eve into the transgression because he did not want to give her up.


So yeah, Adam functioned just as he was created to function.



Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

To the victors go the spoils..complete with their own revised histories and religions. If not the god you speak of, another in its stead. :idunno:

Mankind is the (greedy, capricious) captain of the ship....god is simply its constructed vessel.
 
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