Genesis REVISITED

[Frank Ernest]

philosophizer:
"Frank, you've managed to confuse me more than I've been in a long time. What are we agreeing/disagreeing about?"

FrankiE:
What actually happened in the Garden of Eden.

philosophizer:
"What is the point that you came to this thread to make? Was it about Genesis? About Cain and Abel? About Adam and Eve? About angels having offspring?"

FrankiE:
Genesis relates creation, the replenishment of the earth and the history of the family of Adam and the patriarchs through Joseph. Cain and Abel were fraternal twins. Cain is the son of Satan and Eve; Abel is the son of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 6:1-4 relates that the fallen angels did indeed have offspring with human women.

philosophizer:
"I really believe you have a point, Frank. I just don't have a clue what it is? Please help. "

FrankiE:
Ok.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

TackyZaky:
"In his case, it's hard to distinguish from being completely confused."

FrankiE:
:sozo: :loser:

:kookoo:

 

[Zakath]

Agreed, granite!

 

[Hillclimber76]

Why is Cain not mentioned in Adam's geneology? Why does Cain have his own geneology? Frank is on to something here. Why did Adam and Eve cover their privates with fig leaves? I think I see what he's talking about. Im going to investigate this further.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Hillclimber76

Why is Cain not mentioned in Adam's geneology?

LOTS of people aren't specifically mentioned in Adam's genealogy.

• Genesis 5
  1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
  6Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. 8So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.
  9Enosh lived ninety years, and begot Cainan. 10After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and had sons and daughters. 11So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.
  12Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13After he begot Mahalalel, Cainan lived eight hundred and forty years, and had sons and daughters. 14So all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
  15Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared. 16After he begot Jared, Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years, and had sons and daughters. 17So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.
  18Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. 19After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 20So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died.
  21Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
  25Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26After he begot Lamech, Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had sons and daughters. 27So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died.
  28Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD has cursed." 30After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years, and had sons and daughters. 31So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.
  32And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Only the line that would lead to Noah (and eventually Christ) is given in Genesis 5. And that makes perfect sense, since Noah is the focus of the next few chapters. Genesis 5 bridges the gap between the accounts about Adam & Eve (and Cain & Abel) and the account of Noah and his family and the Flood.

Why does Cain have his own geneology?

The text briefly describes that Cain went off and started his own civilization (if you can call it that) in the land of Nod. The most significant detail given is that his great -great-great-great grandson Lamech was emboldened to murder because there would be no (earthly) punishment.

Frank is on to something here... Im going to investigate this further.

No, he isn't. You need look no further than Genesis 4:1 to see that:

• Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD."

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Hillclimber76

Why does Cain have his own geneology?

Cain's geneology suggests that he repented after being marked by God, or at least some of his descendants had a relationship with God. Bible names are significant. Mehujael and Methusael are two examples. Mehujael roughly means "smitten by God" and Methusael roughly means "man of God".

So we can say that Cain's descendants were not all wicked as opposed to Seth's descendants being godly, as I have heard some suggest over the years. In fact, this verse...

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 4:26

...is often mistranslated. The Targum of Onkelos: "...desisted from praying in the name;" Targum of Jonathan: "...surnamed their idols in the name;" Mamonides, Commentary on the Mishna, ascribes the origin of idolarty to the days of Enosh.

It's interesting that the start of idolatry is mentioned in Adam's geneolgy, not specifically Cain's geneology.

Originally posted by Hillclimber76

Why did Adam and Eve cover their privates with fig leaves?

Two reasons. First, they were suddenly ashamed of their nakedness, so logically they sought to cover themselves. Second, the story of the fall communicates a spiritual message that underlies the entire account. The tree of knowledge of good and evil seems to be the letter of the law; it's fruit being sin, and wages death. The fig leaves represent Adam's and Eve's unrighteous works (fig leaves symbolize works). That is why God doesn't accept their garments as a cover for their unrighteousness (nakedness). Instead he covers them with the skin of an animal (Christ/God's righteousness).

 

[Frank Ernest]

"Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD.""

Repeat question: Why did Eve say she had acquired a man from the Lord if Cain's father was Adam?

 

[Frank Ernest]

elohiym:
"Two reasons. First, they were suddenly ashamed of their nakedness, so logically they sought to cover themselves. "

FrankiE:
Then this is a literal recounting of what happened, no? Why did they cover themselves with aprons? Why not hats?

elohiym:
"Second, the story of the fall communicates a spiritual message that underlies the entire account. The tree of knowledge of good and evil seems to be the letter of the law; it's fruit being sin, and wages death. The fig leaves represent Adam's and Eve's unrighteous works (fig leaves symbolize works). That is why God doesn't accept their garments as a cover for their unrighteousness (nakedness). Instead he covers them with the skin of an animal (Christ/God's righteousness). "

FrankiE:
Are the fig leaf aprons literal or figurative? God didn't say fig-leaf aprons were unacceptable. God asked, "Who told thee thou wast naked?" He wanted to know who was involved, not what are you wearing.

Genesis 3:21 says that God made made coats of skins. Literal or figurative?

Genesis 3:22 mentions the tree of life. Is this not a metaphor for Christ (Revelation 2:7)? If the coats God made in 21 are Christ's righteousness, why was God concerned that Adam and Eve would partake of the tree of life?

If God covered Adam and Eve with Christ's righteousness, why does He (in verse 24) drive them out of the Garden and prevent their return?

In verse 24, what does "... to keep the way of the tree of life" mean?

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

elohiym:
"Two reasons. First, they were suddenly ashamed of their nakedness, so logically they sought to cover themselves. "

FrankiE:
Then this is a literal recounting of what happened, no? Why did they cover themselves with aprons? Why not hats?

Like many literal accounts in the Bible, this one prefigures the gospel of righteousness by faith without the works of the law.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Why did they cover themselves with aprons? Why not hats?

The Bible states:

Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Isn't your question answered by those verses?

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

elohiym:
"Second, the story of the fall communicates a spiritual message that underlies the entire account. The tree of knowledge of good and evil seems to be the letter of the law; it's fruit being sin, and wages death. The fig leaves represent Adam's and Eve's unrighteous works (fig leaves symbolize works). That is why God doesn't accept their garments as a cover for their unrighteousness (nakedness). Instead he covers them with the skin of an animal (Christ/God's righteousness). "

FrankiE:
Are the fig leaf aprons literal or figurative? God didn't say fig-leaf aprons were unacceptable. God asked, "Who told thee thou wast naked?" He wanted to know who was involved, not what are you wearing.

I believe the fig leaves were both literal and figurative. God implied the fig leaves were unacceptable as a covering for their nakedness when he gave them coats of skin.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

So their aprons obviously didn't cover them good enough for God.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Genesis 3:21 says that God made made coats of skins. Literal or figurative?

Both. There are many examples of accounts in the Bible that are both literal and figurative.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Genesis 3:22 mentions the tree of life. Is this not a metaphor for Christ (Revelation 2:7)?

Yes. It is a metaphor for the spirit of the law, which gives life.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is the letter of the law, and partaking of it causes death. The tree of life is the spirit of the law, Christ, and partaking of it's fruit is eternal life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

If the coats God made in 21 are Christ's righteousness, why was God concerned that Adam and Eve would partake of the tree of life?

The coats were only a figure of the righteousness which is a free gift from God. They didn't actually receive God's righteousness in Christ, only a figure of it that should have left them asking: "What was wrong with my fig leaves?"

Are you familiar with Joshua the high priest in the book of Zechariah?

Zechariah 3:3,4 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Here God takes away Joshua's filthy garments (fig leaves/works) and replaces them with a change of garment (coat of skin/God's righteousness). A very close parallel to what happened to Adam and Eve, and figurative.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

If God covered Adam and Eve with Christ's righteousness, why does He (in verse 24) drive them out of the Garden and prevent their return?

That is because then, like today, you cannot eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (sin), the wages of doing so being death, and at the same time eat from the tree of life (Christ), in which their is NO sin.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

There is no sin in Christ.

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

In verse 24, what does "... to keep the way of the tree of life" mean?

It means to preserve the way. So mankind could find it's way back. The flaming sword turning every way is the Bible, which has kept the way of and to the tree of life.

 

[Frank Ernest]

FrankiE:
In verse 24, what does "... to keep the way of the tree of life" mean?

eloyihm:
It means to preserve the way. So mankind could find it's way back. The flaming sword turning every way is the Bible, which has kept the way of and to the tree of life.

FrankiE:
Then the reference to Revelation 2:7 means nothing? If the flaming sword is the Bible, why is the Bible used to prevent Adam and Eve from returning to the Garden?

eloyihm:
"The coats were only a figure of the righteousness which is a free gift from God. They didn't actually receive God's righteousness in Christ, only a figure of it that should have left them asking: "What was wrong with my fig leaves?"

FrankiE:
Why are you ignoring the "why" of the fig-leaf aprons? Why did Adam and Eve make the fig-leaf aprons?

eloyihm:
Zechariah 3:3,4 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

FrankiE:
Christ forgives Joshua's iniquity (filthy garments) and clothes Joshua in His righteousness (change of raiment). Did God punish Joshua AFTER He gave the change of raiment? (In order to keep your comparison intact and consistent, God should have evicted Joshua.)

eloyihm:
There are many examples of accounts in the Bible that are both literal and figurative.

FrankiE:
Then the Bible is meant to be confusing? God is a riddler? I think not.

eloyihm:
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

FrankiE:
In order for your reasoning to be correct, Adam should have said, ... I was afraid, because I was wearing fig leaves; and I hid myself.

eloyihm:
Like many literal accounts in the Bible, this one prefigures the gospel of righteousness by faith without the works of the law.

FrankiE:
Salvation is by faith, not righteousness.

 

[Infamous Plug]

I guess i should have explained things further.

I've heard and it does make sense that Satan tried to pollute the bloodline that would eventually lead to Christ ,Satan knew Jesus would sooner or later have a seat beside God ,and Satan tried to prevent this but he did fail. And most of the bible is telling of the liniage that leads to Christs coming.

 

[Lighthouse]

Eve never had Satan's child.

And you were doing so well, with the gun control and things...:doh:

 

[Frank Ernest]

Eve Never ...

Eve Never ...

:Brandon: :
Eve never had Satan's child.

FrankiE:
Please explain Mathew 13:24-30 and Matthew 24:36-43

 

[Lighthouse]

FrankiE-
Do you really believe that Satan and Eve had sex? And what do either of those scriptures have to do with the topic? I can understand where you might be going with the first one, but I don't see how you would relate it to Eve and Satan having sex.

 

[Frank Ernest]

It's not a matter of belief, it is a clear thread in scripture. Unless one fully understands what happened in the Garden of Eden, one will not understand Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed or His explanation of it to the apostles. No would one understand Revelation 2:8-11 or Revelation 12:1-17.

God's Plan is that all should come to Him in faith and salvation. Satan's is to prevent it. Satan's plan was to prevent the Christ from being born of woman into human flesh and deny salvation to us. What better way than to attempt to destroy the pure seed-line from Adam to the Christ at the very beginning?

God's Word to us is meant to be understood as fully as one's understanding will allow. It tells us exactly what the war between good and evil is, what it consists of, what the stakes are, how we were redeemed from Death, how we are to fight Satan and his angels.

It's all there in scripture. John 8:31-32 and Mark 13:22-23.

 

[julie21]

Re: Eve Never ...

Re: Eve Never ...

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

:Brandon: :
Eve never had Satan's child.

FrankiE:
Please explain Mathew 13:24-30 and Matthew 24:36-43

I took the Matthew verses to perhaps thinly represent the Garden, where God planted good seed ,Adam and Eve. Along came the bad seed, Satan, and he ruined the good field/crop forever via his influencing Eve to go against God's decree. The good crop was ultimately ruined through this sin. I do not believe the word 'seed' here is an allegory for 'sperm'.

I don't follow with the next reference either, in pertaining to the discussion of whether Eve had Satan's child...sorry. Maybe you could enlighten us as to why you think it is relevent?


Humbly,
Julie21

 

[Frank Ernest]

julie21:
"I do not believe the word 'seed' here is an allegory for 'sperm'."

FrankiE:
From the Greek manuscript, the word "seed"
G4690 (Strong's Concordance)
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.

 

[julie21]

FrankiE,
Thanks fOr the definition of seed in its various forms...I still don't believe in this case it is referencing Satan's sperm and impregnation of Eve though.



Further to Matthew 13:24-30
The 'field' in our day is the World we are now in. Strongs definition of seed does mention 'remnant', possibly this could apply to the 'remnant' of Israel that will always exist.
The word of God has been spread as the 'good' seed throughout the World, but the crop has been defiled by Satan, who comes as the enemy and sows his seeds, greed; discontent; hate ;malice, untruths, the 'weeds' that spring up amongst the good crop and will strangle all ruin the field.
As your next reference in Matthew alludes to, we in the World must be wary of this thief who tries to overtake the good seed sown.

The Parable of the Sower, Matthew 13:3 - 9 leads well into the Parable you have noted, and if read in conjunction with the latter, defines it better I believe.
Humbly,
Julie21

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

It's not a matter of belief, it is a clear thread in scripture. Unless one fully understands what happened in the Garden of Eden, one will not understand Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed or His explanation of it to the apostles. No would one understand Revelation 2:8-11 or Revelation 12:1-17.

God's Plan is that all should come to Him in faith and salvation. Satan's is to prevent it. Satan's plan was to prevent the Christ from being born of woman into human flesh and deny salvation to us. What better way than to attempt to destroy the pure seed-line from Adam to the Christ at the very beginning?

God's Word to us is meant to be understood as fully as one's understanding will allow. It tells us exactly what the war between good and evil is, what it consists of, what the stakes are, how we were redeemed from Death, how we are to fight Satan and his angels.

It's all there in scripture. John 8:31-32 and Mark 13:22-23.

So, what happened with Adam? Since he ate of the fruit as well...

 

[Frank Ernest]

:Brandon:
So, what happened with Adam? Since he ate of the fruit as well...

FrankiE:
First he tried to shift the blame to Eve (Genesis 3:12) then God stated the punishment (Genesis 3:17-19). After that God evicted them from the Garden (Genesis 3:22-24). Moving right along, Adam had a bunch of kids and died (Genesis 5:1-5).