General Sports Thread

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Tom Brady only had Randy Moss for basically two years (2007 & 2009).

Brady didn't play in 2008, and Moss was let go after 4 games and 9 receptions in 2010.

So, it isn't like Randy Moss made Brady a great QB.

Peyton always had a stronger supporting cast. I can't believe anyone would honestly say otherwise. (Mr. Manning is 0-4 in cold weather come the postseason. Just sayin'.)

So my Sox are back in the World Series a year after a dumpster fire of a season last year. Probably the most amazing turnaround in pro sports I've ever seen.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Oh, and TH? Enough of this "Peyton's only had two bad playoff games" nonsense. He's had at least five disastrous postseason appearances, and checking out the data will bear that out. He's a machine in the regular season and is regularly frustrated come the playoffs.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
So my Sox are back in the World Series a year after a dumpster fire of a season last year. Probably the most amazing turnaround in pro sports I've ever seen.

Funny how the Red Sox go 86 years between World Series titles and now are gunning for their third World Series title in 10 seasons. That's baseball for you. The Sox are trying to become just the second team to go from worst-to-first and win the World Series title. The 1991 Minnesota Twins did it first.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Is this a sport?:

curling.jpg


Or this?:

dogs-playing-poker.jpg


My argument: If you can smoke, or drink booze, while "acceptably"playing it, it is not a sport.


So, that also eliminates:

-Bowling
-Cheerleading
-Nascar
-Golf
-Jarts
-Croquet
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Peyton always had a stronger supporting cast.
Which is why with Peyton gone his team won two games while with Brady gone his team won eleven?

I can't believe anyone would honestly say otherwise. (Mr. Manning is 0-4 in cold weather come the postseason. Just sayin'.)
How close were the games? Many a playoff game is a slim margin sort of thing. Later I'll note how close both Peytons' losses and a number of Brady's wins were...(hint: very).

Oh, and TH? Enough of this "Peyton's only had two bad playoff games" nonsense. He's had at least five disastrous postseason appearances,and checking out the data will bear that out.
No, he didn't and it won't. He had three really bad games. Brady had two and both were a little better than Peyton's stinkers. And even with that Peyton has better numbers in both the post and regular season.

An actual look at the record will bear that out.


Three horrible games:

2002: rating: 31.2 in a 0-41 drubbing at the hands of the Jets.
2003: rating: 35.5 in a 14-24 loss in NE
2006: rating 39.6 in a 15-6 win over Bal

Against that he had games like:

2003: rating: 158.3 in a 41-10 thrashing of Den
2003: rating: 138.7 in a 38-31 shootout win over KC
2009: rating 123.6 in a 30-17 win over the Jets
2010: rating 108.7 in a 16-17 loss to the Jets

His problem is mostly perception and I think that goes to his talent.

He's been in 11 playoff losses, by

1 pt: 2 games
3 pts: 2 games
4 pts: 1 game
6 pts: 2 games
10 or more pts: 3 games

So only three games were decisively controlled by opponents and one of his best games resulted in a team loss.

Brady led teams won 17-7 in playoffs, with 7 of those being won by 3 pts and 2 more by 4.

Since his last SB win, Brady has gone 8-7 in the playoffs. And no one questions it. So there you go.
 
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Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Since his last SB wing, Brady has gone 8-7 in the playoffs. And no one questions it. So there you go.

How do those numbers fare since Spygate? And remember, nobody says it didn't happen. But it was genuine cheating that helped. I already know the answer to what happened since then.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
How do those numbers fare since Spygate? And remember, nobody says it didn't happen. But it was genuine cheating that helped. I already know the answer to what happened since then.
I know that one too...the thing that kills me is the regular season giant/playoff myth built up around both guys. Brady won his three rings by a total less than Manning's one margin of victory. And the numbers simply don't support the Manning criticism at the position, where he's outplayed Brady in both categories. It's a perception born of early exits for Peyton and forgotten narrow margins for Brady.

But consider those 1 to 3 pt contests. He wins those and it's 13-7. Brady loses his and it's 10 and 14. Peyton's teams tended to win or lose decisively (almost 2-1 compared to NE).
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Well, Manning did stink up the joint a couple of times in the playoffs. Whereas Elway waited until the Super Bowl to drop an egg.

Elway has a reputation as a big-game gunslinger. The Cold, Hard Football Facts prove he was anything but a big-game player on Super Bowl Sunday. Elway threw at least 1 INT in all five of his Super Bowl appearances, including six in the three losses. His performance in Super Bowl XXIV, a 55-10 loss to San Francisco, was one of the worst by a quarterback in Super Bowl history (10 of 26, 108 yards, 0 TD, 2 INTs, 19.4 rating). With the arrival of Mike Shanahan as its coach, Denver became a team powered by the run and Elway rode the coattails of running back Terrell Davis to victory. The Broncos shed their cloak of vincibility with a 31-24 win over Green Bay in Super Bowl XXXII. Elway had his usual subpar Super Bowl passing performance (12 of 22 for 123 yards with 0 TDs, 1 INT), but MVP Davis rushed for 157 yards and a Super Bowl record 3 TDs. Elway pulled it all together in Super Bowl XXXIII, a 34-19 win over Atlanta.

I agree with their analysis. Davis didn't even play the 3rd quarter because his migraine headache was so bad he could not see. I feel it necessary to bring this up since Denver is my pick as the best team in the NFL right now. Not top to bottom of the roster, but they can outscore you.
 
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Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Which is why with Peyton gone his team won two games while with Brady gone his team won eleven?

TH, you're consistently loathe to ever admit your boy's less than perfect or less than #12 in New England, but facts are facts. And by the way, the '08 Pats were essentially the exact same team that won 18 straight games the season before. The team led by the illustrious Curtis Painter and company was falling apart.

No, he didn't and it won't. He had three really bad games.

Well let's see:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/


In a 19-16 loss to Tennessee he completed a whopping (Tebowesque) 45% of his passes. Awful.

He threw two picks against the Jets. Colts were smoked 41-0. Abominable.

In a 24-14 loss against New England he again completed less than half his attempts and managed to pitch four interceptions.

One pick, no TDs: the Pats again, 20-3.

And then there's the pick six to ice a Super Bowl (if he wins that game, you and I probably aren't having this discussion).

An actual look at the record will bear that out.

You betcha! Maybe "horrible" differs in our books...

His problem is mostly perception and I think that goes to his talent.

Either that or remarkably good luck in the regular season and absolutely horrendous bad luck once the playoffs roll around.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Funny how the Red Sox go 86 years between World Series titles and now are gunning for their third World Series title in 10 seasons. That's baseball for you. The Sox are trying to become just the second team to go from worst-to-first and win the World Series title. The 1991 Minnesota Twins did it first.

The waiting wasn't funny, I assure you.:chuckle:

But yeah, this 180's just...crazy. I think they win in seven. And granted, I'm biased, but I think they've got momentum, a slightly better club...and I think Fenway's homefield advantage will come in handy.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
The waiting wasn't funny, I assure you.:chuckle:
Well, yeah if you were born in 1920 it's not funny. :chuckle: Wasn't there a lady Sox fan who attended the 1918 World Series as a child then she died right before the 2004 World Series? Or something like that.

Obviously, not as long a wait but Giants fans had to wait 56 years. Personally I was a Giants fan for 34 years before the World Series title in 2010.

But yeah, this 180's just...crazy. I think they win in seven. And granted, I'm biased, but I think they've got momentum, a slightly better club...and I think Fenway's homefield advantage will come in handy.
The Sox are the favorites I believe.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
TH, you're consistently loathe to ever admit your boy's less than perfect or less than #12 in New England, but facts are facts.
I not only aren't loath, I just plastered three embarrassing loses across this board. He's not perfect, but he's better than Tom at the position. The numbers support it, post and regular season. The Hall supports it.

And by the way, the '08 Pats were essentially the exact same team that won 18 straight games the season before. The team led by the illustrious Curtis Painter and company was falling apart.
Really? What was their record the year before Peyton's injury? Else, like I said, Brady tended to have better teams. I think we built light in the britches defenses that could get after you so long as they weren't kept on the field. But if you could get us into a few three and outs then it came apart. And well coached, playoff teams knew that.

In a 19-16 loss to Tennessee he completed a whopping (Tebowesque) 45% of his passes. Awful.
I know, Granite. It was one of the three I set out.

He threw two picks against the Jets. Colts were smoked 41-0. Abominable.
I set that out too.

In a 24-14 loss against New England he again completed less than half his attempts and managed to pitch four interceptions.
Right. That was the third. And?

One pick, no TDs: the Pats again, 20-3.
A weak, but not awful performance. NE definitely had his number and made life difficult for him the way Detroit made life hard for Jordan for a while.

And then there's the pick six to ice a Super Bowl (if he wins that game, you and I probably aren't having this discussion).
Now you don't want to notice his completion percentage? Nearly 70% and his overall rating? Nearly 90. Yards? He threw for over 300, but they couldn't punch it in the end zone, despite rushing for nearly a hundred yards. And they couldn't stop NO on defense.

The Saints won that one 17-31. One pick didn't decide it.

You betcha! Maybe "horrible" differs in our books...
It shouldn't if you're being objective. By the old rating an 80 would be a decent outing. The 69+ was weak, not horrible. 50 or below is objectively horrible. He had three. Tom had two.

And still, having those three horrible games his numbers are better than Tom's.

Either that or remarkably good luck in the regular season and absolutely horrendous bad luck once the playoffs roll around.
I don't believe in luck. I do believe in numbers though.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
The numbers support it, post and regular season. The Hall supports it.

His record in the playoffs stinks whether you'll ever admit it or not.

Really? What was their record the year before Peyton's injury?

10-6, I'm pretty sure.

Else, like I said, Brady tended to have better teams.

Better defenses, yes. But offensively Peyton had better talent around him.

A weak, but not awful performance.

Then we didn't watch the same snowy game.

The Saints won that one 17-31.

Uh, "31-17" is, I'm pretty sure, the preferred format. The Colts's score doesn't get to go first because you were rooting for them.:chuckle:

One pick didn't decide it.

Sure didn't help anything...

I don't believe in luck. I do believe in numbers though.

Then you should be willing to admit he's been great in the regular season with consistency. And mediocre at best in the playoffs. That's exactly what his record says.

How 'bout them Sox?:devil:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
His record in the playoffs stinks whether you'll ever admit it or not.
Except it isn't "HIS" record. It's a team record. I've said, more than once, that Tom has had better teams.

10-6, I'm pretty sure.
So the loss of Peyton took a team from playoff contention to the first pick in the draft. Tom sat and watched his team do better with the back up than Peyton could manage starting in that year before his injury.

Let he who has ears.

Better defenses, yes. But offensively Peyton had better talent around him.
I think he had, overall and consistently a better crop of WRs. And I think the offensive production tends to show that. Or to be clear, I'm not and I'll never say that the difference between Manning and Brady is a tier drop. It isn't. Beyond the Homer stuff and responsive pleadings I have a great deal of respect for his ability.

Then we didn't watch the same snowy game.
We did. And the numbers at the end of that game were weak. But weak isn't awful. Also, no players play better in snow at the position. Not Tom, not Jim Kelly, not Phil Simms. No one plays better. But some will play better than others. I think Peyton playing so many games in a dome was at a marked disadvantage for him in bad weather in Foxboro. Brady, at home and in an element he's had many more opportunities to understand and adjust to had the edge. No question. I think QBs who come to Denver at elevation are at a disadvantage too (though RBs more so given the nature of their exertion).

Peyton has a really small sample of games in those conditions to make a statement about. So it's mostly a great deal about not much and even less about how the position is played.


Uh, "31-17" is, I'm pretty sure, the preferred format. The Colts's score doesn't get to go first because you were rooting for them.:chuckle:
:D

Sure didn't help anything...
Not argued. But it wasn't the game breaker. The Saints did that to everyone that year. It happens. In the old NFC there seemed to be a team like that almost every year for a stretch, but it was rarely the same team. The Bears one year, the Redskins another, then Dallas for a few.

Then you should be willing to admit he's been great in the regular season with consistency.
He's had stinkers in the regular season. So has Tom, but on average they're both great players with Manning being just a bit better by the tape.

And mediocre at best in the playoffs.
Isn't. The numbers don't support it. You're conflating team performance.

That's exactly what his record says.
No, his performance at the position and I've set that out with the numbers, has been better than Tom Brady, regular season AND post season.

When you have over a hundred rating and your team loses by a point it isn't your fault at QB. If you rush for a hundred and fifty yards in a game and your team loses we don't say, "Hey Adrian Peterson, you're just not a great running back in the post season." :nono:

How 'bout them Sox?:devil:
Looking good. You notice I kept my trap shut about Detroit this year. At least we aren't going to have to watch that happen in the Series this year... :mmph:

Go gett'em. :D
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Except it isn't "HIS" record.

Uh, yeah. Spare me. We both know better. End of the day, the buck stops somewhere. End of the day, it's at the very least the accepted short hand: "His record" is handy and largely accurate given the nature of the position.

So the loss of Peyton took a team from playoff contention to the first pick in the draft. Tom sat and watched his team do better with the back up than Peyton could manage starting in that year before his injury.

We would have to go player by player and schedule for schedule to get any kind of sense how accurate the comparison is.

We did. And the numbers at the end of that game were weak. But weak isn't awful.

At this point you're just splitting hairs.

Also, no players play better in snow at the position. Not Tom, not Jim Kelly, not Phil Simms.

On that I completely disagree. Snow seems to be Peyton's kryptonite. He didn't grow up with it, see it much (if at all) in college, and it's not an environment in which he thrives. In cold weather postseason Manning is 0-4. Tends to bring out the worst in him.

He's had stinkers in the regular season. So has Tom, but on average they're both great players with Manning being just a bit better by the tape.

As all the greats do. But the point you keep ignoring is simple: He is a dominant regular season player who inexplicably runs into consistent trouble come the playoffs. You can call it bad luck (which you deny, for some reason), statistically black and white (which you also try to squirm away from), better opponents who out thought him (which I have to believe you'd never flat out admit), Peyton out thinking himself (coin toss on whether you'd go there), bad play calling (which falls on #18), or a combination of all the above.

Isn't. The numbers don't support it. You're conflating team performance.

I see. So when Peyton was injured it was just "the team" who lost, and would have no matter what, with or without him.

With that I'll just say anything else on the subject (assuming we have anything left) should be said in the football thread.

Looking good. You notice I kept my trap shut about Detroit this year. At least we aren't going to have to watch that happen in the Series this year... :mmph:

Being born and raised in Detroit and growing up rooting for the Tigers I have mixed feelings about the series. I would've been happy with either team, though I'm extremely happy to be able to root for my Sox. I don't expect St. Louis to play that horribly again (it ain't possible...right?) but I fully expect Boston to win in six or seven.
 
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