From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

[Ktoyou]

I see it as a psychological malady, not as a physiological problem. In other words, the problem is in the mind, not the brain.

huh?

 

[Tambora]

[MENTION=18643]Tattooed Theist[/MENTION]


I have seen you express that you support homos, but not homosexuality.
That is equivalent to "love the sinner, hate the sin".
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that we are not under the law.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that GOD's grace is unmerited.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that GOD's grace is sufficient.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

 

[Crucible]

Many people can be homosexual if they kill their conscience enough. The reason for those 'homosexuals' who practice abstinence is because they can't kill theirs enough. Instead, they embrace the culture.

People don't like to think too far into what actually occurs in the minds of people during sodomy. The homosexual agenda is a facade that has simply deluded people into thinking it's no different than when a man and woman have sex.

 

[marhig]

I removed your obnoxious size edit for everyone's sake.

Anyways, yes. We see that verse also quoted in Hebrew... to the Jews...

Your ending, just shows you didn't read my initial post.
I do not support sin.
I also do not support adherence to Mosaic law, in which YOU sir - are no better than a "fag."

so pick your poison.
You are JUST as sinful as a "fag," or are you going to listen to Jesus and understand what a New Covenant is and minister to the homosexuals so that they might find life also, as you've found in Christ?

Regardless we are no better than anyone else, your sin is no better than theirs.
How you treat them, however, shows whether you actually know Christ or not.

I support homosexuals. They are made in the image of God.
I do not support homosexuality. For it is not God's design or plan.

I agree with some of your post, we are all sinners and I hope for everyone to know God homosexuals included, but homosexuals and anyone else who does vile acts before God are not in his image. We turn away from God when we do such things, we are to turn from sin. Jesus was in the express image of God and he was pure, and he came as an example for us to follow, and once we truly follow him and we are blessed with the holy spirit and born of God with Christ in our hearts. Then we are in God's image and we will turn away from such things as homosexually and sin. Until then, we are dead to God in our sins.

Also the laws, they aren't all redundant. God did say that he would write his laws upon our hearts and in our minds. The first covenant was obeyed by the letter which was corrupted by man, the second which is through Jesus is obeyed through the spirit who can't be corrupted, who teaches those who belong to God daily the laws of God within, teaching us to turn from sin and to obey God and to show Gods love to others whoever they are.

I would help anyone, homosexuals included. But I'd tell them the truth, that it's a sin before God to do such an act. An act that only brings forth dirt. Yet a man a woman bring forth a living child. That in itself shows it is wrong before God.

The only right way is the way that brings life. Which is between a man and a woman. Male with male and female with female being forth nothing living.

Romans 3

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[marhig]

If the fundamental and primary law is LOVE,...then all things expressed within the context of love's will and nature, will be 'lawful' unto itself. This would include all relationships between all souls, no matter their orientation or gender-identification. Don't forget "in Christ there is neither male or female".

Love between soul to soul especially in God is good. I love many other women in God.

But, to commit the act of gay sex is another matter and it isn't the same thing. it's a sin. And this is taught in the old and the new testament. You can't just brush it over as lovely because it's all done in love. There is lust also.

Gay sex is wrong before the living God

Romans 1

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

God forgives us our ignorance, but once we know the truth, we are held accountable. And the truth is that gay sex is wrong before the living God.

 

[clefty]

All this can be answered with one question.

Do you uphold Mosaic Law?
If you accept that we are still held to it, then I sure hope you adhere to all the laws

How does living as He did not uphold them?

He did ask us to live as He did yes?

 

[clefty]

If the fundamental and primary law is LOVE,...then all things expressed within the context of love's will and nature, will be 'lawful' unto itself. This would include all relationships between all souls, no matter their orientation or gender-identification. Don't forget "in Christ there is neither male or female".

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you,so you must love one another."

Bolded the part you choose to ignore...

As if His love included or condoned gay sex acts...

 

[clefty]

Maybe you should ask Jesus.
Hint hint, the "Greatest Commandment."
Love God, love each other - everything else falls in line with that.

Mosaic law was given to the Jews, was it not?
Christians didn't exist.
What is the point of Jesus if not to bring in the new covenant?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

no...was given to all Israel...and to the goys with them...one law for all

Oh and just cuz it was given to Moses doesnt mean it is his law...came from above...

 

[Tattooed Theist]

[MENTION=18643]Tattooed Theist[/MENTION]


I have seen you express that you support homos, but not homosexuality.
That is equivalent to "love the sinner, hate the sin".
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that we are not under the law.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that GOD's grace is unmerited.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I have seen you express that GOD's grace is sufficient.
Don't know why a Christian would disagree with you.

I very much appreciate you're intelligence to the Gospels, you - my friend - are a world changer.
:e4e: :cheers:

I agree with some of your post, we are all sinners and I hope for everyone to know God homosexuals included, but homosexuals and anyone else who does vile acts before God are not in his image. We turn away from God when we do such things, we are to turn from sin. Jesus was in the express image of God and he was pure, and he came as an example for us to follow, and once we truly follow him and we are blessed with the holy spirit and born of God with Christ in our hearts. Then we are in God's image and we will turn away from such things as homosexually and sin. Until then, we are dead to God in our sins.

Absolutely, turn away from homosexuality - but surely do not turn away from homosexuals. For we are called to "go make disciples," not to "go make disciples with those who aren't gay."

Also the laws, they aren't all redundant. God did say that he would write his laws upon our hearts and in our minds. The first covenant was obeyed by the letter which was corrupted by man, the second which is through Jesus is obeyed through the spirit who can't be corrupted, who teaches those who belong to God daily the laws of God within, teaching us to turn from sin and to obey God and to show Gods love to others whoever they are.

Precisely my point. The redundancy of the laws isn't what I was getting at - at all.
As for writing the laws on our hearts, again this is extremely vague, and Jesus' command and directive when it comes to law, in my opinion, is what I will bank on me being held to the day I die and stand before Him.

I would help anyone, homosexuals included. But I'd tell them the truth, that it's a sin before God to do such an act. An act that only brings forth dirt. Yet a man a woman bring forth a living child. That in itself shows it is wrong before God.

The only right way is the way that brings life. Which is between a man and a woman. Male with male and female with female being forth nothing living.

Romans 3

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Absolutely, for our sin is no better or more righteous then their sin. If we stand to categorize peoples worth for salvation by sin then we are suffering a very severe pride issue.

but again as to the law, maybe semantically I made a mistake with how I spoke - forgive me and allow me to rephrase.

Jesus did not come to "abolish" the Law, but to Fulfill it - Yes! of course, although the context in in which He Himself becomes the law.

Would you not agree?

 

[Tattooed Theist]

no...was given to all Israel...and to the goys with them...one law for all

Oh and just cuz it was given to Moses doesnt mean it is his law...came from above...

"Mosaic Law Definition: Ancient law as set out in the first five books of the Bible (Old Testament). The name is derived from Moses who received the Ten Commandments; this and other Jewish law as set out in the aforementioned first five chapters ("books") of the Bible."
Source




Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Tattooed Theist]

How does living as He did not uphold them?

He did ask us to live as He did yes?

Yes exactly.
Jesus BROKE Mosaic Law in front of the Periphrases.

You just agreed with me, unknowingly.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes exactly.
Jesus BROKE Mosaic Law in front of the Periphrases.

You just agreed with me, unknowingly.

Jesus broke the oral law (their traditions and incorrect interpretations of His law) before them, because they were the laws of man, He never broke the mosaic law given in scripture, if He broken even one, He would not have been an unblemished lamb without spot, suitable for sacrifice for sin.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sin is a transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Peter 1:19 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

Exodus 12:5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We are not under the law, but its very important to understand that Christ broke no law or He could not have been Messiah.

see: Did Jesus break or violate the Old Testament law?

For way more in depth on this: Question…But isn’t “Penal Substitution” actually illegal (if not immoral)??

 

[freelight]

Context my dear.........

Context my dear.........

freelight wrote:

If the fundamental and primary law is LOVE,...then all things expressed within the context of love's will and nature, will be 'lawful' unto itself. This would include all relationships between all souls, no matter their orientation or gender-identification. Don't forget "in Christ there is neither male or female".

clefty responded:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you,so you must love one another."

Bolded the part you choose to ignore...

As if His love included or condoned gay sex acts...

Hello clefty

You're assumption is misconstrued, since my former commentary holds. I am well aware that Jesus loves us, and by that same love, we love one another. All expressions of affection and communion shared in the context of this love are love-sanctioned. Love is the fulfilling of the law, being the fundamental LAW. In love there is no sin....only fullness, completeness.

In Christ there is no male nor female. Love in Spirit transcends gender, yet includes all gender expressions, forms and identities. 'God' is all in all. You appear to be hung up on particular 'sex acts' themselves, which you have an aversion towards. I speak of love itself and expressions of affection within that context.

Also as shared earlier,...the same-sex acts prohibited in the OT were those performed in the worship of other gods (temple shrine sex), so it was in this context of 'idolatry' that such acts were condemned, since the worship of Yahweh did not include or sanction such acts, the Jewish temple-worship having its own rites and rituals. 'Context' is key

Shrine Prostitutes - Is THAT what Moses was talking about in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13?

 

[freelight]

Eunuchs for the kingdom.......

Eunuchs for the kingdom.......

Did Jesus make homosexuals or did they make themselves?

Jesus said some men are 'eunuchs' from birth. This might indicate some have homosexual orientation before being physically born.

For an extensive documented study on 'eunuchs' See:

Thesis: Eunuchs are Gay Men

(with a listing of secondary sources)

by Mark Brustman

Why do you suppose people would be homosexuals and face terrific prejudice from straight society?

This is noted by others,...why any would choose homosexuality or transgenderism in the face of prejudice, bigotry and persecution within society.

Do you think maybe homosexuals have a brain defect that steers them towards homosexuality?

This is a study in itself, whether brains of homosexuals or transgendered persons are different than heterosexual persons. But here we must consider the brain/mind connection,...for 'mind' or 'soul' is the immaterial aspect or essence while the brain is but the physical organ thru which such a mentality is expressed. So,...homosexuality/transgenderism is essentially psychological, yet physiological as well, since you cannot separate mind from body, and the spiritual/energetic components therein.

 

[Rondonmonson]

I would suggest you have things backwards. It seems you are taking secular beliefs involving evolutionism (chemical, stellar, biological) and then trying to fit that worldview into scripture. We should trust God's Word as the absolute truth, and then see how neatly the data supports God's Word.

No Laws are in effect, all Laws are written on our hearts, because men can not keep the law, thus if we are guilty of not keeping one law we are guilty of breaking them all, thus Jesus took our sins upon him. The Old Covenant Laws was never the original covenant anyway, that was added 430 years after the PROMISE that God gave to Abraham of the Coming SEED (Jesus Christ) that would take our sins away. The PROMISE was the original covenant, not the Law. That's not the point.

The point is God is ALWAYS JUST, and His original Laws were just, and we need to be able to defend them else we have worldly men calling Gods Old Laws unjust, and we sit back and say nothing. They WIN....Because if God was ever an unjust God, He is always an unjust God. We have to understand why each of Gods Old Testament Laws were needed. Suffer not a Witch to live is not an unjust law, God will destroy all evil people with fire. But now that Jesus has paid the price for all, they are given the chance to repent before they face their consequences, whereas with Israel, God could not take the chance of such evils slipping in and destroying the as a Nation, so there was a penalty of Death, because Israel had to bring forth the Messiah. That is why it is a Covenant (agreement) between Israel and God........and no one else. That doesn't mean Witchcraft is not evil. The same thing with homosexuality and all forms of sin, if God declares something evil, it is evil and the people who practice such, unless they repent, will wind up in hell.

So those of us who love our fellow brothers preach repentance from sin and shine the light on their evil just as Ezekiel 3:18 tells us to do. But those that defend such evil practices are only leading the blind towards the cliff of their own ultimate destruction. THAT'S NOT LOVE !!

God curses us??
Oh man, I see that you and I see through entirely different theological lenses.

So I will opt to remove myself from this conversation.
Take care man.

Your only problem is Scriptures prove this point.




20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: {{ CATCH THAT ? God gave them up to Lusts because they worshiped images of man and animals instead of God !! }}

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Seems pretty clear to me, God allowed these people to become DEPRAVED for one reason, they refused to acknowledge Him as God and served Man (self) instead of God.

 

[Rondonmonson]

Some are obsolete as well,...so pick your cherry

Also, as I shared earlier,...can you share on record how many people were ever 'killed' for committing homosexual acts per Yahweh's command? - note as I shared earlier with supporting articles, that this was a rule given within the context of acts performed during idol worship. If you want to claim this particular rule, you'll have to accept and abide by all the other levitical laws as well,....but that might be perhaps a bit too 'legatistic' for you?

Consider the 'cultural-context' of the OT/NT,...it can do wonders......

Can one be gay and Christian?

The point is/was all of Gods laws are just and have a purpose. To pretend that Homosexuality is not an evil sin that will take you to hell is in essence a bad joke. As a Christian, we should all understand this fact. If we do not tell the wicked the error of their ways, we will be held responsible for their blood go read Ezekiel 3:18.

Of course God destroyed the Canaanites for many evils, sacrificing their Children to Molech, because of sexual immorality, having relations between uncles, daughters, mothers, dads, sons etc. etc, and also men with men and women with women. It is an abomination, meaning God hates it, and since God hates it, so do I, BECAUSE IT LEADS MEN TO HELL !!

You can pretend all you want, but anyone that supports homosexuality or abortion will have to answer to God for this sin, and it is a sin, that will have to be repented of, because all sin must be repented of. '

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Its a cop out to say Laws of old are not of God. Just because God now gives us the Holy Spirit and the "Laws" are written on our hearts doesn't mean God has changed, all the Sexually impure will not make it to HEAVEN............Rev 21:8 8 But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

If you want to tell the Homosexuals that it is OK to be a homosexual then go ahead, but they will not make Heaven without repenting, and by not telling them the truth, we also sin before God.

As per the cultural context of the OT/NT, God does not change.

 

[jamie]

this and other Jewish law

First of all, God is not Jewish and secondly, Moses was not Jewish.

Moses received the law from the Father through Christ. The law was for the Father's firstborn son to establish peace and order.

The Father intended his law to be effective until Christ became flesh, died for sin and a new testament was established.

 

[jamie]

Absolutely, turn away from homosexuality - but surely do not turn away from homosexuals. For we are called to "go make disciples," not to "go make disciples with those who aren't gay."

No matter good an algebra teacher is he won't be able to teach algebra to a cow.

Homosexuality is a choice, it is not imposed on anyone by anyone. Each person is accountable to God for their choices.

A homosexual person can choose a different lifestyle any time they are ready.

 

[jamie]

But here we must consider the brain/mind connection,...for 'mind' or 'soul' is the immaterial aspect or essence while the brain is but the physical organ thru which such a mentality is expressed.

Yes, a brain is a brain is a brain. All a brain does is process information from five physical senses and two spiritual senses.

Are male and female brains different? Not really.

Are male and female minds different? Yes, due to hormonal differences that determine how a person develops with regard to their biological sex.

Based on a person's biological sex a person's mind is influenced primarily by their culture, nurture, and hormones.

 

[jamie]

Jesus said some men are 'eunuchs' from birth.

Jesus' statement is in reference to a birth defect.

Birth defects do not determine a person's sexual orientation.

A eunuch was prohibited by Mosaic law from marrying an Israelite woman.