Free Will

daqq

Well-known member
I hear you here, since I'm trained in that school as well, that holds 'God' as one who cannot see or know evil, being wholly Good, the eternal and infinite Good Alone, as for being that original, universal, non-dual, indivisible ONE, that cannot be any other than its own singular nature, all holy. But you are aware of the scriptures that do attest YHWH as being the one who creates, allows, makes allowance for both evil(calamity) and good (blessing) {in fact the whole dichotomy of light/darkness; life/death...arises as an interplay in creation}, and this is a matter of translation eh? STILL as I noted,....all potentials/possibilities for good inhere in 'God', but whence comes evil? - even if you say it cannot be derived from Deity, it arose from some inherent potential allowed to exist by God, thru some privation, lack, or shadow contrasted by infinite good and LIGHT, since arising in that duality or light/shadow interplay....is the mystery of evil/iniquity. I'm sure you can bring up many interesting scriptural allusions on this theme :) - I just thought to bring it up for exploration. - anyways, while on the subject of 'free will', we see how this very faculty allows evil to have a play in human experience. Would you agree then that evil exists and its potential for death and destruction because of 'free will'?

I do not "know" that scripture: bara = cut down, according to Yhoshua haKohen haGadol, (Joshua 17:15, 18), i.e. "In the beginning Elohim cuts down the shamayim and the erets: and the erets is formless and void", and likewise, "I form light and cut down darkness: I make peace and cut down evil", (Isaiah 45:7). So you see it is all in your perception of the text: if you walk in death, then you will see death, but if anyone keep the sayings of Messiah the same shall not see death. But if evil is a product of freewill so what? The love of Elohim is greater: this is a Father teaching His children, not some ogre who demands literal physical blood for every mistake, (as you already know, but I simply make the point as blatantly as possible).
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Nope, every man does not at heart "hate God" deep inside: that is merely your own perspective.
Perhaps that very statement helps to explain why Calvinists are Calvinists and-or Reformers.
You imagine that all people are just like yourselves but you do not speak for humanity.
Nope
 

daqq

Well-known member

Yep, that is what your proud poster child said on the previous page which you so proudly displayed so that all may plainly see and understand your way of thinking: "at heart every man hates God", (A. W. Pink).

Really bad news for you: I have never hated God, never ever at any time in my existence, even before I entered into the faith in Messiah, and I know that many millions more would say the same thing as I do. Your belief in such nonsense is either a product of your own background or you simply came to believe it without really thinking about it because your teachers taught it to you and told you it was the only thing that could possibly be true. Yes, perhaps that is more likely, eh? "You hated God, before you came to our church, but you simply did not know that you really hated Him at heart! Now that you are here and on your way to becoming an ElectoidTM you may truly love God the way He predestined you to love Him, (with a little Perseverance of the SaintsTM)!"
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Yep, that is what your proud poster child said on the previous page which you so proudly displayed so that all may plainly see and understand your way of thinking: "at heart every man hates God", (A. W. Pink).

Really bad news for you: I have never hated God, never ever at any time in my existence, even before I entered into the faith in Messiah, and I know that many millions more would say the same thing as I do. Your belief in such nonsense is either a product of your own background or you simply came to believe it without really thinking about it because your teachers taught it to you and told you it was the only thing that could possibly be true. Yes, perhaps that is more likely, eh? "You hated God, before you came to our church, but you simply did not know that you really hated Him at heart! Now that you are here and on your way to becoming an ElectoidTM you may truly love God the way He predestined you to love Him, (with a little Perseverance of the SaintsTM)!"
Nope:

Let God, himself tell you:

It is man who:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Maybe the TOL's own urantian department can help you.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Nope:

Let God, himself tell you:

It is man who:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Maybe the TOL's own urantian department can help you.
Yeah....Uhm....None of those explicitly state that all (which where created in the image of GOD)hate GOD; they do expound on the potential for man to go against what is good and right (namely the percievable will of GOD as it relates to man) due to free will and potential. Without freedom we would be unwilling slaves or similar to plants or rocks that do not veer from their intended path. Without potential all creation would be for naught but the entertainment of some different thing other than GOD. We have freedom to experience and learn and choose. We have the freedom to act towards our own selfish inclinations(sin). We have the potential (via hearing and abiding by the will of GOD, selfless conscience, Holy Spirit, Word of GOD/Christ of GOD) to be not only submissive to the will of GOD, but to allow it to fill us wholly, seeking to do no thing whatsoever that is against that will at any time, and actively doing that thing that is good and right in all cases whatsoever, reflecting the light of GOD, allowing the water of life to fill the temple/ vessel, which is to have that substance run over, cascading the vessel, not for the sight of man; GOD forbid; but indeed for the sake of all but self. Potential rests in the knowledge of sin; as in knowing it to be against what is right, one too learns what is good and not sin.

Gotta get to work.

Basically to say all hate GOD is just wrong.

I'll have you know that through my years of atheism/agnosticism/ scepticism, I dared to exclaim within that I hated god. Said proclamation was difficult to accept even in my spiteful atheism. It brought out much anger and hate, and was seemingly exceedingly detrimental to the well-being of myself and others. Many atheists don't even hate GOD as they are ignorant of the knowledge of GOD. You cannot hate what you donot know or at least have belief in.

Those that hate GOD are those of willfully ignorance and knowing misdirection. The ones that propogate lies and attempt to lead the sheep astray. Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit and would have all fall by the wayside off from the narrow path.

Gotta work, sorry if unintelligible; no scholar, and not much of a linguist or even communicator, and have limited time now.

Regardless,

peace with humility and sincerity.

Faith, praise, fear, submission, love, and obedience is to GOD alone, by way of the blessed Crist of GOD, the self sacrifice and example of Jesus



Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk
 

daqq

Well-known member
Nope:

Let God, himself tell you:

It is man who:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Maybe the TOL's own urantian department can help you.

Urantian department ???

Maybe the actual contexts of those passages you proof quoted will help you:

JEREMIAH 17:9 IN CONTEXT:

Jeremiah 17-7-9 KJV
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


According to this the Father searches the hearts of men, and tries the reins, and gives to every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. If every heart of man is utterly evil and hates God, as you say, then there is no need for the Father to search the hearts or try the reins of men.

Mark 7:21-23 is also expounded in Matthew 15 and concerns what defiles a man but neither passage states what you state because the context is eating with unwashed hands, (because the Pharisees did so believing that coming into contact with Gentiles at the marketplace would defile them). The point has nothing to do with what you are trying to extrapolate out of the passage. And in addition look at how the passage begins as quoted below with the words HEAR, AND UNDERSTAND! According to your doctrine it is a useless statement to make because you say that no one can HEAR or UNDERSTAND without the help of God. Therefore your doctrine nullifies what Yeshua says right here in this passage to the multitude:

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


JOHN 3:19 IN CONTEXT:

John 3:17-21 KJV
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


There are TWO CLASSES of people groups herein above and they are not all "totally depraved" as you have imagined. Those who do evil hate the light. Those who do truth come to the light.

CONTEXT - ROMANS 3:10-12 IS QUOTING FROM PSALM 14:1-3!

Romans 3:10-12 KJV
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 14:1-3 KJV
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Again, two classes of people groups: "workers of iniquity" and "who devour My people".

Psalm 14:1-7 Septuagint Brenton translation
1 For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after God.
3 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become good for nothing, there is none that does good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.
4 Will not all the workers of iniquity know, who eat up my people as they would eat bread? they have not called upon the Lord.
5 There were they alarmed with fear, where there was no fear; for God is in the righteous generation.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his hope.
7 Who will bring the salvation of Israel out of Sion? when the Lord brings back the captivity of his people, let Jacob exult, and Israel be glad.


Paul likely quotes the Septuagint version, (which is why I quoted it), but either way this Psalm opens up plainly stating that the author, king David, is speaking of FOOLS who say in their heart that there is no God. The closest you might get to forcing it to say what you want is by the phrase "sons of men" but that has a different supernal understanding in the scripture, (as do the phrases "sons of Elohim" and "son of Man"). However even this passage contrasts the "workers of iniquity" against the people of Elohim, "My people", and "the counsel of the poor", whose hope is in the Father, (Psalm 14:6), meaning that this passage again is not stating that every person ever born is "totally depraved". You have made a set of doctrines out of terrible extremes in every case in everything you read. Nothing actually goes to the limits of the extremes which you and yours teach. I see no need to even go through the rest of your points because it would take too much room and you are already proven wrong about every human being supposedly hating God.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Yeah....Uhm....None of those explicitly state that all (which where created in the image of GOD)hate GOD; they do expound on the potential for man to go against what is good and right (namely the percievable will of GOD as it relates to man) due to free will and potential. Without freedom we would be unwilling slaves or similar to plants or rocks that do not veer from their intended path. Without potential all creation would be for naught but the entertainment of some different thing other than GOD. We have freedom to experience and learn and choose. We have the freedom to act towards our own selfish inclinations(sin). We have the potential (via hearing and abiding by the will of GOD, selfless conscience, Holy Spirit, Word of GOD/Christ of GOD) to be not only submissive to the will of GOD, but to allow it to fill us wholly, seeking to do no thing whatsoever that is against that will at any time, and actively doing that thing that is good and right in all cases whatsoever, reflecting the light of GOD, allowing the water of life to fill the temple/ vessel, which is to have that substance run over, cascading the vessel, not for the sight of man; GOD forbid; but indeed for the sake of all but self. Potential rests in the knowledge of sin; as in knowing it to be against what is right, one too learns what is good and not sin.

Gotta get to work.

Basically to say all hate GOD is just wrong.

I'll have you know that through my years of atheism/agnosticism/ scepticism, I dared to exclaim within that I hated god. Said proclamation was difficult to accept even in my spiteful atheism. It brought out much anger and hate, and was seemingly exceedingly detrimental to the well-being of myself and others. Many atheists don't even hate GOD as they are ignorant of the knowledge of GOD. You cannot hate what you donot know or at least have belief in.

Those that hate GOD are those of willfully ignorance and knowing misdirection. The ones that propogate lies and attempt to lead the sheep astray. Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit and would have all fall by the wayside off from the narrow path.

Gotta work, sorry if unintelligible; no scholar, and not much of a linguist or even communicator, and have limited time now.

Regardless,

peace with humility and sincerity.

Faith, praise, fear, submission, love, and obedience is to GOD alone, by way of the blessed Crist of GOD, the self sacrifice and example of Jesus



Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk

What's with all these babblings?

I'll stick with the Bible.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Urantian department ???

Maybe the actual contexts of those passages you proof quoted will help you:

JEREMIAH 17:9 IN CONTEXT:

Jeremiah 17-7-9 KJV
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


According to this the Father searches the hearts of men, and tries the reins, and gives to every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. If every heart of man is utterly evil and hates God, as you say, then there is no need for the Father to search the hearts or try the reins of men.

Mark 7:21-23 is also expounded in Matthew 15 and concerns what defiles a man but neither passage states what you state because the context is eating with unwashed hands, (because the Pharisees did so believing that coming into contact with Gentiles at the marketplace would defile them). The point has nothing to do with what you are trying to extrapolate out of the passage. And in addition look at how the passage begins as quoted below with the words HEAR, AND UNDERSTAND! According to your doctrine it is a useless statement to make because you say that no one can HEAR or UNDERSTAND without the help of God. Therefore your doctrine nullifies what Yeshua says right here in this passage to the multitude:

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


JOHN 3:19 IN CONTEXT:

John 3:17-21 KJV
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


There are TWO CLASSES of people groups herein above and they are not all "totally depraved" as you have imagined. Those who do evil hate the light. Those who do truth come to the light.

CONTEXT - ROMANS 3:10-12 IS QUOTING FROM PSALM 14:1-3!

Romans 3:10-12 KJV
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 14:1-3 KJV
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Again, two classes of people groups: "workers of iniquity" and "who devour My people".

Psalm 14:1-7 Septuagint Brenton translation
1 For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after God.
3 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become good for nothing, there is none that does good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.
4 Will not all the workers of iniquity know, who eat up my people as they would eat bread? they have not called upon the Lord.
5 There were they alarmed with fear, where there was no fear; for God is in the righteous generation.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his hope.
7 Who will bring the salvation of Israel out of Sion? when the Lord brings back the captivity of his people, let Jacob exult, and Israel be glad.


Paul likely quotes the Septuagint version, (which is why I quoted it), but either way this Psalm opens up plainly stating that the author, king David, is speaking of FOOLS who say in their heart that there is no God. The closest you might get to forcing it to say what you want is by the phrase "sons of men" but that has a different supernal understanding in the scripture, (as do the phrases "sons of Elohim" and "son of Man"). However even this passage contrasts the "workers of iniquity" against the people of Elohim, "My people", and "the counsel of the poor", whose hope is in the Father, (Psalm 14:6), meaning that this passage again is not stating that every person ever born is "totally depraved". You have made a set of doctrines out of terrible extremes in every case in everything you read. Nothing actually goes to the limits of the extremes which you and yours teach. I see no need to even go through the rest of your points because it would take too much room and you are already proven wrong about every human being supposedly hating God.
Those quotes stand alone for Christians but your commentaries are yours since you think you're 99% spiritualy dead or 99% sinner. You think you have some left to be god. You deny total depravity. All you have is luck. Christains don't gamble
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
There is nothing wrong with gambling. Jesus Himself said "Is it not lawful for a man do do what he wants with his own money?"

That's all I have to say, back on ignore

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

Ignore and roar !

Ignore and not ignore and then ignore is the same as lying. If you say you put me on ignore then you wouldn't see my posts but you saw it meaning you lied again saying you put me on ignore.

We all can see your lies in plain view in real time. You are a living liar. Lies flows from your mouth like niagara falls. It roars.

new-york-niagara-falls-state-park.jpg
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Ignore and roar !

Ignore and not ignore and then ignore is the same as lying. If you say you put me on ignore then you wouldn't see my posts but you saw it meaning you lied again saying you put me on ignore.

We all can see your lies in plain view in real time. You are a living liar. Lies flows from your mouth like niagara falls. It roars.

new-york-niagara-falls-state-park.jpg

why does it bother you so much if one ignor you and unignor you? Just because one does that does not mean they are lying.

and it is not against rule to do that.

It seems that you say something your enemy don't want to know what you are saying.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
why does it bother you so much if one ignor you and unignor you? Just because one does that does not mean they are lying.

and it is not against rule to do that.

It seems that you say something your enemy don't want to know what you are saying.
I beg her put me on ignore. No more lies from her
 

RBBI

New member
Free will is a tool that is an illusion. This is how it works. Imagine you are driving along to your destination by your will, but suddenly a road block is in your path and you have to detour. In this realm it looks like you made all the choices, but G-d who can see the end from the beginning and decided to send you another way, put up the roadblock that caused you to turn. You imagine it was happenstance or coincidence, but there is none, He knows the very hairs on your head.

But He uses it as a tool, until your will becomes so consumed with His will that there is no need for "free will" anymore because you have submitted to Him (choose ye this day whom ye will serve) so completely, that you can say not my will but Your will be done. At that moment, "free will" ceased, and your eyes become opened to the fact you never really had it after all, nor is there any further need for the illusion of it. Blessings...
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Good and evil are part of the experience . they seem so real yet they are mere states that bow the knee to each other on stage for their emotional contribution to divine awakening.

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