ECT Free will

[oatmeal]

I see what you're saying only the danger I see is that God Is responding to man's righteousness and that means grace is not true grace because it's earned. If I am understanding you correctly. Yes God does indeed take notice.

Pete

God's grace is unmerited and is initiated by God only.

Yet we also learn that those who use what God gives receives more from God.

Ie, the parable of the three men that the master gave talents to, two of them doubled what was given to them and were rewarded, the third was afraid to use what was given to him and lost even that.

All life is God's grace, the heavens and the earth is by God's grace.

We have been given access to grace by the works of Jesus Christ. Romans 5:2

God's grace remains unmerited, yet we have access to grace.

It would be wise to utilize that access to receive (not earn, receive) God's grace

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

How? Why? because Noah sought to serve God

And God graciously gave him that opportunity. The word grace, in Genesis 6:8, I have learned from one source, includes the idea of mercy. Mercy, like grace, as grace is the granting of something we did not earn. Thus it could be said that God's mercy issues from God's grace

There are a few more passages I would like to add to this. There are those who as Romans 2:6-11 states, although Judean or Gentile, not the church of God, that God acknowledges to be seeking to do right, as did the OT believers. God does not ignore that. Judeans and Gentiles do not the spirit of God as the church of God does, I John 4:13, Acts 2:38, Acts 11:16-17,

Luke 11:13

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 7:39

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[chrysostom]

God gave us the dimension of time to use to our benefit.

What if your life was to spiritually and wonderfully and in a most positive way effect the lives of even one person if God's timetable took another 1000 years or a million years.

If you remained alive and well for another 20 years, but you were able to reach someone with God's word and give them the words that put their hand in God's hand, would that be worth it to you?

A work of love that God would eternally appreciate and reward you for?

Isn't that worth enduring this crazy, stupid world for a few more years?

that doesn't answer the question

 

[ttruscott]

...

Who do you think God would "mark out beforehand" as good fruit?

a. Those who God foreknew would choose to obey him

b, those who God foreknew would willfully ignore or disobey or rebel against Him?

God's foreknowledge precedes "predestination"

God's foreknowledge is the key to God marking out beforehand.

Thanks for asking

Very good except for the problem that this definition of foreknowledge means that HE did know who would willfully ignore or disobey or rebel against Him before He created them but created them anyway, without marking them out!

Why create them without marking them out, lovingly knowing their end in hell, instead of NOT CREATING THEM AT ALL? How long can those claiming that this is the meaning of foreknowledge go without ever answering this blasphemy? And don't say HE created them to hell for HIS own good pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, another common contradiction tagged onto this evil definition of foreknowledge: Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;

The only definition of foreknowlege that avoids this blasphemy is to define the "before" of "fore" as "before earthly life," not "before creation". Thus it refers to a time after our creation but before our being sown into the earth as the good seed if sown by the Son of Man or as the tares if sown by the evil one.

It also allows HIS foreknowledge to rest upon HIS knowledge of what we actually chose by our free will, marking out (predestinating) those who accepted HIS claim to deity, HIS elect, for salvation whereas the tares who chose to rebel against HIS claims to deity were left to their own devices. Are not electing (choosing) and marking out the same?

Peace, Ted

 

[ttruscott]

why can't we just fast forward to the end
if
God knows how all of this is going to turn out?

The tares will be gathered to be burnt when the good seed are ready to be harvested as heaven ready, that is, as completely righteous and holy... This process is perfectly managed by the predetermined lives of the sinful but good seed to be sanctified, dealing with our stubbornness without damage to ourselves.

While holiness speeds the coming of that great and terrible day: 2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and speeding the coming of the day of GOD. it obviously is not a process that can be rushed / put into fast forward.

Peace, Ted

 

[Puppet]

why can't we just fast forward to the end
if
God knows how all of this is going to turn out?

We're already at the end, thats how we knew we were screwed. The fundies think they got more time to fix it.

 

[oatmeal]

that doesn't answer the question

It may be that I do not understand your question?

Why would God fast forward you through time?

You do not believe God has foreknowledge?

why can't we just fast forward to the end
if
God knows how all of this is going to turn out?

Because you don't know how all this is going to turn out.

You have already been given foreknowledge. so why don't you fast forward through time to the end?

 

[oatmeal]

Very good except for the problem that this definition of foreknowledge means that HE did know who would willfully ignore or disobey or rebel against Him before He created them but created them anyway, without marking them out!

Why create them without marking them out, lovingly knowing their end in hell, instead of NOT CREATING THEM AT ALL? How long can those claiming that this is the meaning of foreknowledge go without ever answering this blasphemy? And don't say HE created them to hell for HIS own good pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, another common contradiction tagged onto this evil definition of foreknowledge: Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;

The only definition of foreknowlege that avoids this blasphemy is to define the "before" of "fore" as "before earthly life," not "before creation". Thus it refers to a time after our creation but before our being sown into the earth as the good seed if sown by the Son of Man or as the tares if sown by the evil one.

It also allows HIS foreknowledge to rest upon HIS knowledge of what we actually chose by our free will, marking out (predestinating) those who accepted HIS claim to deity, HIS elect, for salvation whereas the tares who chose to rebel against HIS claims to deity were left to their own devices. Are not electing (choosing) and marking out the same?

Peace, Ted

Of course God knows, foreknows who will believe and who will not believe.

He knows ahead of time everything there is to know about the future.

He is, after all, the all knowing God.

Isaiah 57:15

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Since He inhabits eternity, the past and the future and the present are all accessible to Him now.

He knows how you will choose to exercise your freewill tomorrow and the day after and for as long as you live. He knows how many hairs are on your head right now and how many will be on your head 24 hours from now any time in the future.

The God who is able to create the heavens and the earth knows and foreknows what is going on in what He chose to create.

God lets people decide who and what they will believe, dedicate themselves to, get committed to.

God foreknows who will do what.

He used that information wisely, God is the only wise God, (there are other gods that are not wise) I Timothy 1:1

You are not familiar with Jesus parable that involves the tares and the good seed?

Have you not read the following?

Matthew 13:24-30

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The wisdom of God is to let the tares remain until the harvest, lest the wheat be rooted up with them.

 

[oatmeal]

The tares will be gathered to be burnt when the good seed are ready to be harvested as heaven ready, that is, as completely righteous and holy... This process is perfectly managed by the predetermined lives of the sinful but good seed to be sanctified, dealing with our stubbornness without damage to ourselves.

While holiness speeds the coming of that great and terrible day: 2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and speeding the coming of the day of GOD. it obviously is not a process that can be rushed / put into fast forward.

Peace, Ted

God does not predetermine who are the evil ones and who are the believers.

God foreknows who will choose evil and who will choose God.

 

[oatmeal]

If God indeed hardwires some people to do good and some to do evil, then God is advocating evil

God is love I John 4:8 is programming someone to do evil and then reap the consequences of doing that evil an act of love?

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all I John 1:5 is programming someone to do evil and then cause them to reap the consequences of doing that evil the result of light or darkness?

 

[oatmeal]

Romans 12:1-3

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If indeed some have been hardwired and programmed to do evil and some to do good, why would God beseech anyone?

For that matter, what is the point of John 3:16, if indeed the sinners were already doomed to sin and the believers hardwired and programmed to be sinless?

Would a pure, righteous, sinless God hardwire and program believers to sin?

If indeed God did hardwire and preprogram people, then you are but a puppet.

If God preprogrammed some to do evil, then God is the cause of that evil, which makes God evil.

How would you know for sure you are a believer, if God is evil?

He could have led you to believe you are a believer, but the joke is on you, it could be that the others that you call God rejectors are the actual believers in that evil god.

Predetermination/hardwiring/preprogramming of people's standing with or against God is so repugnant to scripture and logic.

 

[Puppet]

According to God being the past, present and the future at the same time, yesterday is the same as tommorrow and tommorrow is the same as yesterday while the beginning is the same as the end and the end is the same as the beginning. Oatmeal are into a denomination of divisions that rearranges the things of God in the order they want. This proves that oatmeal doesn't understand the spiritual things of God like the rest of mankind. All of you need to get over it and stop babbling. Oatmeal babbles the most but same as the rest of us including Squeaky . The calvinist takes the bible as it is even though they know not to question God to belittle Him like oatmean and Squeaky does. They want to be god and deny Jesus

 

[oatmeal]

Exodus 3:11

If Moses had been preprogrammed to do God's will, why would Moses question God?

Why would God have to tell him anything?

Moses had to be instructed and motivated and his fears overcome.

Moses desired to serve God but needed more to freely serve God without fear.

It was Moses' decision to serve God by responding to God's calling.

 

[oatmeal]

Since freewill is clearly taught in scripture, only the ignorant and stubborn would choose to believe anything else.

 

[oatmeal]

The apostle Paul exercised his freewill in prayer

I Corinthians 14:14-15

I will, I will, I will, I will

not I was preprogramed by God to pray, but

I will, I will, I will, I will

I will by my will, I will choose by my ability to do so.

 

[oatmeal]

According to God being the past, present and the future at the same time, yesterday is the same as tommorrow and tommorrow is the same as yesterday while the beginning is the same as the end and the end is the same as the beginning. Oatmeal are into a denomination of divisions that rearranges the things of God in the order they want. This proves that oatmeal doesn't understand the spiritual things of God like the rest of mankind. All of you need to get over it and stop babbling. Oatmeal babbles the most but same as the rest of us including Squeaky . The calvinist takes the bible as it is even though they know not to question God to belittle Him like oatmean and Squeaky does. They want to be god and deny Jesus

Evidently you have not been taught or read Isaiah 57:15

Well, now you have the opportunity to do so, but will you and will you believe what God says of Himself?

Your post would indicate that you reject Isaiah 57:15 and all other scriptures that does not fit into your perfect knowledge of who God is.

I note that you dare not supply any scripture to support your position.

Your loss and your error

 

[Puppet]

Evidently you have not been taught or read Isaiah 57:15

Well, now you have the opportunity to do so, but will you and will you believe what God says of Himself?

Your post would indicate that you reject Isaiah 57:15 and all other scriptures that does not fit into your perfect knowledge of who God is.

I note that you dare not supply any scripture to support your position.

Your loss and your error

God forces me to follow His path. You'll need to direct your jealousy to Him.

 

[oatmeal]

Evidently, the Calvinists never bothered to look up "freewill" in scripture.

How sad they based their theology on opinion and ignorance rather than scripture.

 

[Puppet]

Evidently, the Calvinists never bothered to look up "freewill" in scripture.

How sad they based their theology on opinion and ignorance rather than scripture.

All calvinists claim they have natural desires and make choices but you rather believe in the lies of anti-calvinists and not on your homework. You have to do you own homework and flee from your lying friends.

 

[revpete]

God's grace is unmerited and is initiated by God only.

Yet we also learn that those who use what God gives receives more from God.

Ie, the parable of the three men that the master gave talents to, two of them doubled what was given to them and were rewarded, the third was afraid to use what was given to him and lost even that.

All life is God's grace, the heavens and the earth is by God's grace.

We have been given access to grace by the works of Jesus http://realnewsrightnow.com/2015/07...instructed-me-to-revise-the-ten-commandments/

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

How? Why? because Noah sought to serve God

And God graciously gave him that opportunity. The word grace, in Genesis 6:8, I have learned from one source, includes the idea of mercy. Mercy, like grace, as grace is the granting of something we did not earn. Thus it could be said that God's mercy issues from God's grace

There are a few more passages I would like to add to this. There are those who as Romans 2:6-11 states, although Judean or Gentile, not the church of God, that God acknowledges to be seeking to do right, as did the OT believers. God does not ignore that. Judeans and Gentiles do not the spirit of God as the church of God does, I John 4:13, Acts 2:38, Acts 11:16-17,

Luke 11:13

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 7:39

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

"Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

How? Why? because Noah sought to serve God"

It was by the grace of God that Noah had the desire to serve Him, not the other way around.

God's mercy and grace are connected as you say. However, we are not saved by His mercy. Mercy gives us what we don't deserve, grace goes further. Grace doesn't give us what we do deserve and then goes on give more and our cups run over.

The Lord states through His prophet Isaiah that all our righteousness is (in His sight) like filthy tags or a menstrual clothing. No, without His grace we can not please God. To say any other devalues grace and brings God down to our level.

 

[oatmeal]

God forces me to follow His path. You'll need to direct your jealousy to Him.

The true God does not force people to do His will.

He expects us to willfully and freely obey His will out of our desire to do so.

Mark 9:14-27 is one record of a spirit that forced a person to do things. That spirit is referred to as a dumb spirit, foul spirit, deaf and dumb spirit.

The kind of spirit that forces people to do things is an foul spirit, a devil spirit that possesses the mind and body of the host person or animal.

If indeed, you are being forced to do something by a spirit, it is not the spirit of God, but a devil spirit

Jesus Christ and his disciples were adept at casting out devil spirits, as we should be.

You may want to seek help from God and learn from His word how to overcome your challenges and learn to do God's will from your own freewill choices