ECT Free will

[revpete]

If someone sneaks up on you and hits you on the head with a bat and knocks you unconsciousness, but you didn't hear him or the thud, will you have a lump on your head?

Your illustration mixes up natural and physical. I do see your point even though I don't agree. BTW why did you answer a post addressed to me?

 

[Puppet]

Thank you marionette

I won't accept you calling me a marionette, whatever that means.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I won't accept you calling me a marionette, whatever that means.

_____
A marionette is a puppet controlled from above using wires or strings depending on regional variations. A marionette's puppeteer is called a marionettist.
~wikipedia
_____​

 

[oatmeal]

Your illustration mixes up natural and physical. I do see your point even though I don't agree. BTW why did you answer a post addressed to me?

Freewill is yours whether anyone realizes it or not.

Jesus Christ told people that were healed by him that it was their faith, or more precisely, their believing that enabled them to receive healing.

Or he told them, that without believing, nothing will happen, Mark 9:23

People can exercise their freewill to believe to achieve physical goals, mental goals, financial goals spiritual goals....

I answered your post because I wanted to, because I chose to by my freewill

 

[oatmeal]

Didn't I answer yer post O wise OP?

I do not see how that particular post fits into this thread.

Maybe you could explain how or why you think it does?

 

[oatmeal]

God's grace is revealed to us through the measure of faith that He alone deals to every man who has some.


Romans 12:3 KJV


3 For I say , through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think ; but to think soberly , according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Yes God deal to every one who believes that measure of faith,

however, I do not see a connection between this thread on freewill and your comments.

Could you explain why you think there is a connection?

Can you explain why you think there is a connection?

 

[revpete]

Freewill is yours whether anyone realizes it or not.

Jesus Christ told people that were healed by him that it was their faith, or more precisely, their believing that enabled them to receive healing.

Or he told them, that without believing, nothing will happen, Mark 9:23

People can exercise their freewill to believe to achieve physical goals, mental goals, financial goals spiritual goals....

I answered your post because I wanted to, because I chose to by my freewill

I believe you are using the dictionary definition of free will and not the Biblical. Go back to the fall, was Adam and Eve created with free will? Yes of course they were. After they fell, did they lose their free will? I would say yes, otherwise their fall was partial and not total. I suppose therein lies the crux of the matter. If partial fall, free will retained. If total fall, free will is lost.

Dictionary definition: the ability to make a choice using one's intellect. Biblical definition: the ability to choose those things which apply only to the fallen nature. The ability for fallen man to choose that which is spiritually good is dependent solely on God's grace. So He alone is glorified and man can claim nothing!

Pete

 

[oatmeal]

I believe you are using the dictionary definition of free will and not the Biblical. Go back to the fall, was Adam and Eve created with free will? Yes of course they were. After they fell, did they lose their free will? I would say yes, otherwise their fall was partial and not total. I suppose therein lies the crux of the matter. If partial fall, free will retained. If total fall, free will is lost.

Dictionary definition: the ability to make a choice using one's intellect. Biblical definition: the ability to choose those things which apply only to the fallen nature. The ability for fallen man to choose that which is spiritually good is dependent solely on God's grace. So He alone is glorified and man can claim nothing!

Pete

No one loses their freewill.

They may not exercise it and it weakens but no one loses it.

They may err in their use of free will, which may negatively effect future decisions, especially if the error becomes habitual, but no one loses it.

Adam and Eve could still exercise their free will and they did.

There change of circumstances lessened their options of how and where they could serve God, but they still had the freewill to choose to serve God.

When Saul was anointed king, he erred by not obeying God's words, but he did not lose his freewill. He could have, at any time, decided to serve God simply because it is the right thing to do, but he did not, he ended up murdering himself.

Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, is an example of someone who chose to seek and serve God, he erred in how he did it, till Jesus Christ himself came down to witness to him, then we see that Saul turned his life from consenting to slaughtering followers of the Way, to becoming its greatest leader.

Free will is never lost, it may be ignored, weakened, burdened down, seemingly limited by circumstances, but is is always available for any live person to exercise.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I believe you are using the dictionary definition of free will and not the Biblical. Go back to the fall, was Adam and Eve created with free will? Yes of course they were. After they fell, did they lose their free will? I would say yes, otherwise their fall was partial and not total. I suppose therein lies the crux of the matter. If partial fall, free will retained. If total fall, free will is lost.

Could you show me the Bible verses that call Adam's sin "the fall"?

Biblical definition: the ability to choose those things which apply only to the fallen nature.

I can't find this definition anywhere in the Bible.
Which Bible did you get it from?

The ability for fallen man to choose that which is spiritually good is dependent solely on God's grace.

Well, yes it is, since God gave man free will and said His creation was "very good".

But, you are probably misusing the word "grace" to mean something it never means in the Bible.

 

[oatmeal]

Could you show me the Bible verses that call Adam's sin "the fall"?


I can't find this definition anywhere in the Bible.
Which Bible did you get it from?


Well, yes it is, since God gave man free will and said His creation was "very good".

But, you are probably misusing the word "grace" to mean something it never means in the Bible.

Good points!

 

[revpete]

No one loses their freewill.

They may not exercise it and it weakens but no one loses it.

They may err in their use of free will, which may negatively effect future decisions, especially if the error becomes habitual, but no one loses it.

Adam and Eve could still exercise their free will and they did.

There change of circumstances lessened their options of how and where they could serve God, but they still had the freewill to choose to serve God.

When Saul was anointed king, he erred by not obeying God's words, but he did not lose his freewill. He could have, at any time, decided to serve God simply because it is the right thing to do, but he did not, he ended up murdering himself.

Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, is an example of someone who chose to seek and serve God, he erred in how he did it, till Jesus Christ himself came down to witness to him, then we see that Saul turned his life from consenting to slaughtering followers of the Way, to becoming its greatest leader.

Free will is never lost, it may be ignored, weakened, burdened down, seemingly limited by circumstances, but is is always available for any live person to exercise.

To save us going around in circles we had better agree to differ.

Pete

 

[revpete]

Could you show me the Bible verses that call Adam's sin "the fall"?


I can't find this definition anywhere in the Bible.
Which Bible did you get it from?


Well, yes it is, since God gave man free will and said His creation was "very good".

But, you are probably misusing the word "grace" to mean something it never means in the Bible.

The fall is descriptive term just like trinity or millennium which are not in the Bible either.
This definition is taught throughout scripture and is as plain as ... eternal punishment and dare I say it, total depravity. Not everything doctrinally accurate is in black and white. I must be misusing grace as it couldn't possibly be you

Pete

 

[genuineoriginal]

The fall is descriptive term just like trinity or millennium which are not in the Bible either.

Millennium is found in the Bible and has been taught throughout Judaism and Christianity.

But, I see your point that the fall is like the trinity.
It is an extra-Biblical doctrine that was first accepted in Christianity during the time of Augustine.

This definition is taught throughout scripture

But that is the issue.
The fall of man is not taught throughout scripture.
It is taught throughout the writings of Augustine, who took it from the teachings of Manichaeism.

and is as plain as ... eternal punishment

Eternal punishment is in the Bible and has been taught throughout Judaism and Christianity.

and dare I say it, total depravity.

And once again you are bringing up a doctrine that is not found in the Bible but was first accepted in Christianity during the time of Augustine.

Not everything doctrinally accurate is in black and white. I must be misusing grace as it couldn't possibly be you ��

Pete ��

Yes, you are misusing the word grace.
This misuse of the word grace can also be traced to the writings of Augustine.

God's grace is not some kind of power God uses to enable you to do something.
The Bible says that what the power of the Holy Spirit does.

Grace is God finding something that pleases Him when He examines your heart, and what pleases God, what God is looking for, is faith.

Your false doctrines of the fall of man and total depravity (same thing, different names) is merely you denying yourself and others of the ability to become pleasing to God.