ECT Free will

[oatmeal]

The English phrase "free will" is not found in scripture, however,

"freewill" is found in scripture. ( All verses will be KJV, unless otherwise specified the KJV is a reasonable version to use as the basis or starting point.)

Leviticus 22:21

And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23

Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38

Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.

Numbers 15:3

And will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39

These things ye shall do unto the Lord in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6

And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17

Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10

And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23

That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

 

[oatmeal]

2 Chronicles 31:14

And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the Lord, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4

And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5

And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord.

Ezra 7:13

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16

And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28

And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the Lord; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the Lord God of your fathers.

Psalm 119:108

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments.

Is there such a thing as freewill?

Having checked other versions concerning Psalm 119:108, they all are synonymous in their renderings of that verse.

free will offering or voluntary offering and similar wording are the consensus.

Freewill is a reality, God's word teaches it.

We can freely offer lives to serve God or offer our lives to serve other gods.

These other gods are not only physical idols of wood or stone or beads on a string, but may be country, family, children (children first?) philosophy, a job, money, career, personal goals....

We are to put God first in our lives, Matthew 6:33, and having received His righteousness and having citizenship in heaven, we are to do Colossians 3:1-2

We are to do this freely by our own will and decision.

 

[oatmeal]

Genesis 2:16-17

God commanded it.

For a time both Adam and Eve obeyed it.

The words "obey" and "disobey" clearly show a choice for someone to make.

The scriptural examples of God giving the choice to obey or not to obey are plentiful

Genesis 3:6 Adam and Eve willfully chose to eat of the fruit. They were offered an alternative to God's commandment and they chose to disobey God. "she took of the fruit and did eat" "and he did eat"

They did not have to eat, but they chose to eat.

God's gracious promise to make a way to escape temptation was there, they could have cried out to God for His strength and help, but they did not. They did not hold fast to God's commandment.

Romans 5:19

 

[oatmeal]

So, who will freely and willfully foolishly argue that "freewill" is not a concept found in scripture?

So, who freely and willing believes God's words in scripture?

Who, of their freewill chooses to ignore those verses and the many like it?

Who, of their freewill choose to offer their lives to God to serve God only?

We can live but one day at a time. This is our daily decision, will we freewillingly offer our lives today in service to God?

Will we offer the words of our mouth to be pleasing to God?

 

[revpete]

Genesis 2:16-17

God commanded it.

For a time both Adam and Eve obeyed it.

The words "obey" and "disobey" clearly show a choice for someone to make.

The scriptural examples of God giving the choice to obey or not to obey are plentiful

Genesis 3:6 Adam and Eve willfully chose to eat of the fruit. They were offered an alternative to God's commandment and they chose to disobey God. "she took of the fruit and did eat" "and he did eat"

They did not have to eat, but they chose to eat.

God's gracious promise to make a way to escape temptation was there, they could have cried out to God for His strength and help, but they did not. They did not hold fast to God's commandment.

Romans 5:19

Thanks for the effort you put into that. However, all the verses you cite deal with physical choices or horizontal free will and you automatically link them to spiritual free will or vertical free will.
Paul describes the unsaved person as spiritually dead: Eph.2:1 and just as a person who's physically dead is incapable of making a physical decision so a person who's spiritually dead is incapable of making a spiritual decision.
A person cannot give their life to The Lord without being regenerated first. Without that impartation of life from above we remain dead in sin and powerless to choose that which is spiritually good. Free will for man exists but only horizontally. In order to exercise free will spiritually or vertically we must have the enabling grace of God.

Pete.

 

[oatmeal]

Thanks for the effort you put into that. However, all the verses you cite deal with physical choices or horizontal free will and you automatically link them to spiritual free will or vertical free will.
Paul describes the unsaved person as spiritually dead: Eph.2:1 and just as a person who's physically dead is incapable of making a physical decision so a person who's spiritually dead is incapable of making a spiritual decision.
A person cannot give their life to The Lord without being regenerated first. Without that impartation of life from above we remain dead in sin and powerless to choose that which is spiritually good. Free will for man exists but only horizontally. In order to exercise free will spiritually or vertically we must have the enabling grace of God.

Pete. ��

You have several good points but I must qualify and/or expand on them.

Genesis 6:22 Noah made a physical or rather mental decision to do all that God commanded. That mental decision was evidenced or manifested in the physical world. How? Noah obeyed and built the ark... as God commanded.

Was Noah dead in trespasses and sins? Yes, he was as much as anyone else was.

However, I do not choose to take the liberty to tell God what His words mean. Please show me where God says,

"Paul describes the unsaved person as spiritually dead: Eph.2:1 and just as a person who's physically dead is incapable of making a physical decision so a person who's spiritually dead is incapable of making a spiritual decision."

Being physically dead means physically dead.

Being spiritually dead means spiritually dead.

However, we must not ignore context.

Does the commonly used phrase "spiritually dead" appear in Ephesians 2:1?

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

No, it does not.

Could the phrase "spiritually dead" be loosely applied here, depending on what is meant by "spiritually dead", yes, I suppose.

However, Ephesians 2:1 says "dead in trespasses and sins" not "spiritually dead" Do people sin after receiving salvation? They shouldn't but they do. Romans 6

Some people who speak of "spiritually dead" seem to actually be referring to "mentally dead" or "brain dead"

Being "spiritually dead", whatever that means, is not the same as "mentally dead" or "brain dead"

Anyone can mentally choose to receive salvation by meeting the requirements of Romans 10:9-10.

Of course, then, as you say, we are then equipped to serve God spiritually.

Were the children of Israel capable of serving God according to the OT law? Yes, at times they did, and rather well. Yet, they did not have access to the promise of Ephesians 2:1 "and you hath he quickened..."

Noah was not "born again" or saved by the gift of salvation.

How was it that he was obedient to God?

Did he not do all that was commanded by God?

No doubt, his obedience, his faithful hard work to God was sufficient for God to count him as a believer and thus shall receive eternal life at the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just.

Did Jesus' works make something available to mankind that Noah, Abraham, David, Jeremiah, Esther, Ruth, Mordecai, Boaz not have access to? Were they "regenerated"? No, yet they used their mental capacities to choose to server God. Those that God put His spirit upon were able to serve God spiritually, but those who were not granted that were still able to serve God by the keeping of His commandments

Could the OT believers choose to believe without the accomplishments of Jesus Christ?

Moses was dead in trespasses and sins, yet he obeyed God successfully.

How many other men and women are recorded in the OT that choose to believe God in spite of the truth that the gift of salvation was not yet available?

 

[genuineoriginal]

In order to exercise free will spiritually or vertically we must have the enabling grace of God.

It appears that you don't know what "grace of God" is, since you qualified it by "enabling".

 

[revpete]

It appears that you don't know what "grace of God" is, since you qualified it by "enabling".

Not really worth answering but... The grace of God enables a spiritually dead person to respond to Him.
Pete

 

[chrysostom]

does predestination mean we do not have free will?

 

[oatmeal]

Genesis 8:15-18 God commanded and Noah obeyed.

 

[oatmeal]

does predestination mean we do not have free will?

Excellent question. One that I enjoy answering.

I was taught that "predestinate" as used in scripture means something entirely different in scripture than what "predestinate" means in our "modern" culture. Since I prefer not to take anyone's word for it, whenever I have need for further information, I like to look into it myself.

The Greek word, according to EW Bullinger, means "to mark out beforehand".

It does not mean force someone to do something nor does it imply a lack of free will to make choices.

If you had the ability to say, pick only good fruit, that stayed fresh for a time, as opposed to bad, spoiling, rotten, putrifying fruit that quickly worsened, for your personal consumption, would you exercise that ability?

I would, I tend to pick fruit that is in good shape that will, most likely, last a time.

If had foreknowledge, it would be far simpler to choose which fruit to pick.

God does has foreknowledge and uses it, and thus knew from the beginning who would, in the future, choose to believe Him.

Who do you think God would "mark out beforehand" as good fruit?

a. Those who God foreknew would choose to obey him

b, those who God foreknew would willfully ignore or disobey or rebel against Him?

God's foreknowledge precedes "predestination"

God's foreknowledge is the key to God marking out beforehand.

Thanks for asking

 

[oatmeal]

Genesis 12:1-4

God spoke to Abram what to do.

Abram took heed and obeyed.

 

[oatmeal]

Abram exercised his free will.

"I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord.."

"I will [not]"

Genesis 14:22-23

 

[chrysostom]

Excellent question. One that I enjoy answering.

I was taught that "predestinate" as used in scripture means something entirely different in scripture than what "predestinate" means in our "modern" culture. Since I prefer not to take anyone's word for it, whenever I have need for further information, I like to look into it myself.

The Greek word, according to EW Bullinger, means "to mark out beforehand".

It does not mean force someone to do something nor does it imply a lack of free will to make choices.

If you had the ability to say, pick only good fruit, that stayed fresh for a time, as opposed to bad, spoiling, rotten, putrifying fruit that quickly worsened, for your personal consumption, would you exercise that ability?

I would, I tend to pick fruit that is in good shape that will, most likely, last a time.

If had foreknowledge, it would be far simpler to choose which fruit to pick.

God does has foreknowledge and uses it, and thus knew from the beginning who would, in the future, choose to believe Him.

Who do you think God would "mark out beforehand" as good fruit?

a. Those who God foreknew would choose to obey him

b, those who God foreknew would willfully ignore or disobey or rebel against Him?

God's foreknowledge precedes "predestination"

God's foreknowledge is the key to God marking out beforehand.

Thanks for asking

why can't we just fast forward to the end
if
God knows how all of this is going to turn out?

 

[revpete]

You have several good points but I must qualify and/or expand on them.

Genesis 6:22 Noah made a physical or rather mental decision to do all that God commanded. That mental decision was evidenced or manifested in the physical world. How? Noah obeyed and built the ark... as God commanded.

Was Noah dead in trespasses and sins? Yes, he was as much as anyone else was.

However, I do not choose to take the liberty to tell God what His words mean. Please show me where God says,

Being physically dead means physically dead.

Being spiritually dead means spiritually dead.

However, we must not ignore context.

Does the commonly used phrase "spiritually dead" appear in Ephesians 2:1?

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

No, it does not.

Could the phrase "spiritually dead" be loosely applied here, depending on what is meant by "spiritually dead", yes, I suppose.

However, Ephesians 2:1 says "dead in trespasses and sins" not "spiritually dead" Do people sin after receiving salvation? They shouldn't but they do. Romans 6

Some people who speak of "spiritually dead" seem to actually be referring to "mentally dead" or "brain dead"

Being "spiritually dead", whatever that means, is not the same as "mentally dead" or "brain dead"

Anyone can mentally choose to receive salvation by meeting the requirements of Romans 10:9-10.

Of course, then, as you say, we are then equipped to serve God spiritually.

Were the children of Israel capable of serving God according to the OT law? Yes, at times they did, and rather well. Yet, they did not have access to the promise of Ephesians 2:1 "and you hath he quickened..."

Noah was not "born again" or saved by the gift of salvation.

How was it that he was obedient to God?

Did he not do all that was commanded by God?

No doubt, his obedience, his faithful hard work to God was sufficient for God to count him as a believer and thus shall receive eternal life at the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just.

Did Jesus' works make something available to mankind that Noah, Abraham, David, Jeremiah, Esther, Ruth, Mordecai, Boaz not have access to? Were they "regenerated"? No, yet they used their mental capacities to choose to server God. Those that God put His spirit upon were able to serve God spiritually, but those who were not granted that were still able to serve God by the keeping of His commandments

Could the OT believers choose to believe without the accomplishments of Jesus Christ?

Moses was dead in trespasses and sins, yet he obeyed God successfully.

How many other men and women are recorded in the OT that choose to believe God in spite of the truth that the gift of salvation was not yet available?

The O.T. saints chose to serve God through His grace, Noah found grace in God's sight: Gen.6:8. They were justified by faith as was Abraham. As Heb.Ch. 11 teaches. However it is a Biblical teaching that faith is a gift from God.

I am not one of "those people" who thinks that spiritually dead means brain dead or mentally dead. We were all spiritually dead before The Lord saved us. Surely the phrases spiritually dead and dead in trespasses and sins mean the same. It is splitting hairs to suggest otherwise.

You are correct when you assert that those who God put His Spirit on were able (I would say enabled here) to serve Him and those He did not were able to serve Him by observing His Law. Although I would ask: what did they do (the ones on whom God put His Spirit) to deserve such an honour? The answer is nothing! It was by God's grace and nothing of themselves.

Yes, we do sin after salvation but Jesus did not deal with sins on the cross but sin. Our old sinful natures are not removed at salvation but are given a new one when our dead spirits are regenerated. Thus our standing before God does not alter but our state does. The prodigal, even in the depths of his rebellion never ceased being his father's son. Don't misunderstand I'm not saying that we have a license to sin.

God has also given us a brain and He expects us to use it. Being spiritually dead and physically dead meaning what it says is just common sense.

Pete

 

[oatmeal]

Abram believed in the Lord and the result was?

"He [God] counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6

A recurring theme in Paul's epistles is the very same truth for us.


Romans 4:16-5:2 KJV

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith [believing, see verse 17,18 Abraham believed God] of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith [believing], giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Galatians 2:16;3:6 ff

 

[oatmeal]

The O.T. saints chose to serve God through His grace, Noah found grace in God's sight: Gen.6:8. They were justified by faith as was Abraham. As Heb.Ch. 11 teaches. However it is a Biblical teaching that faith is a gift from God.

I am not one of "those people" who thinks that spiritually dead means brain dead or mentally dead. We were all spiritually dead before The Lord saved us. Surely the phrases spiritually dead and dead in trespasses and sins mean the same. It is splitting hairs to suggest otherwise.

You are correct when you assert that those who God put His Spirit on were able (I would say enabled here) to serve Him and those He did not were able to serve Him by observing His Law. Although I would ask: what did they do (the ones on whom God put His Spirit) to deserve such an honour? The answer is nothing! It was by God's grace and nothing of themselves.

Yes, we do sin after salvation but Jesus did not deal with sins on the cross but sin. Our old sinful natures are not removed at salvation but are given a new one when our dead spirits are regenerated. Thus our standing before God does not alter but our state does. The prodigal, even in the depths of his rebellion never ceased being his father's son. Don't misunderstand I'm not saying that we have a license to sin.

God has also given us a brain and He expects us to use it. Being spiritually dead and physically dead meaning what it says is just common sense.

Pete

Noah found grace. Why or how? Noah evidently caught "God's eye" as someone willing to believe and to continue to believe God. That caught "God's eye"

2 Samuel 15:25

And the king said unto Zadok, Carry back the ark of God into the city: if I shall find favour in the eyes of the Lord, he will bring me again, and shew me both it, and his habitation:

2 Samuel 22:25

Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

1 Kings 15:5

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did David his father.

1 Kings 16:25

But Omri wrought evil in the eyes of the Lord, and did worse than all that were before him.

2 Chronicles 6:40

Now, my God, let, I beseech thee, thine eyes be open, and let thine ears be attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

2 Chronicles 16:9

For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Psalm 18:24

Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.

Psalm 33:18

Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 34:15

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

Even though God is all knowing, the above verses express the idea that God observes and takes note of who is doing right and who is doing wrong.

God does not force people to do right or wrong, but God takes note of who is doing what

 

[Puppet]

Anyone can make a free will offering. What is to keep an atheist from slaudering a lamb at the alter?

 

[revpete]

Noah found grace. Why or how? Noah evidently caught "God's eye" as someone willing to believe and to continue to believe God. That caught "God's eye"

2 Samuel 15:25

And the king said unto Zadok, Carry back the ark of God into the city: if I shall find favour in the eyes of the Lord, he will bring me again, and shew me both it, and his habitation:

2 Samuel 22:25

Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

1 Kings 15:5

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did David his father.

1 Kings 16:25

But Omri wrought evil in the eyes of the Lord, and did worse than all that were before him.

2 Chronicles 6:40

Now, my God, let, I beseech thee, thine eyes be open, and let thine ears be attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

2 Chronicles 16:9

For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Psalm 18:24

Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.

Psalm 33:18

Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 34:15

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

Even though God is all knowing, the above verses express the idea that God observes and takes note of who is doing right and who is doing wrong.

God does not force people to do right or wrong, but God takes note of who is doing what

I see what you're saying only the danger I see is that God Is responding to man's righteousness and that means grace is not true grace because it's earned. If I am understanding you correctly. Yes God does indeed take notice.

Pete

 

[oatmeal]

why can't we just fast forward to the end
if
God knows how all of this is going to turn out?

God gave us the dimension of time to use to our benefit.

What if your life was to spiritually and wonderfully and in a most positive way effect the lives of even one person if God's timetable took another 1000 years or a million years.

If you remained alive and well for another 20 years, but you were able to reach someone with God's word and give them the words that put their hand in God's hand, would that be worth it to you?

A work of love that God would eternally appreciate and reward you for?

Isn't that worth enduring this crazy, stupid world for a few more years?