Forgiving Others

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Freak

When someone is wronged

Sure it is. We shouldn't hold unto anger, hate, bitterness, or malice. We should release those emotions and forgive those who wronged us.

Freak, I understand there can be hate associated with sin, that's why God doesn't want us to sin, it causes pain. But I can't think of any circumstances where emotion should be the reason for our actions.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another.


Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

This verse doesn't undo how forgiveness works. Do you believe all are saved?


I noticed you completely ignored my question. Let's try again...
What if you can't get in touch with the person or don't know the person? Can we forgive them without knowing if they have repented? Answer this question! Please.

No. We don't have to, nor do we have to allow the emotions to control our lives, we may shed the emotion, smart folks seek Christ at these times. The emotion and forgiveness are 2 seperate things.

I have sinned against people who had passed away before I repented. That was part of the soul crushing weight God dropped on it one night. It makes me realize I need to take action while I can to gain the forgiveness from those I can. Forgiveness is golden, you should know this as one who has humbled yourself before Christ.

I can not however take away any emotional pain I caused them. That's a really good reason not to sin against others, it hurts.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh
This verse doesn't undo how forgiveness works. Do you believe all are saved?
Let me help you...

God's Word tells us to forgive those who have wronged us. In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that.

Btw, no, not all are saved, silly girl.



No. We don't have to, nor do we have to allow the emotions to control our lives, we may shed the emotion, smart folks seek Christ at these times. The emotion and forgiveness are 2 seperate things.
Is unforgiveness wrong?

I have sinned against people who had passed away before I repented. That was part of the soul crushing weight God dropped on it one night. It makes me realize I need to take action while I can to gain the forgiveness from those I can.
And if you don't gain forgiveness from another human being? Then what? Can Christ still rescue? I think so.

I can not however take away any emotional pain I caused them.
I serve a much more powerful God then that. I can go before God and ask Him to heal.
 
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Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Freak

Btw, no, not all are saved, silly girl.

How do those who are saved, get saved?

Is unforgiveness wrong?

No, in context (ie: unasked for)

And if you don't gain forgiveness from another human being? Then what? Can Christ still rescue? I think so.

Let's go at this one thing at a time. First the general idea of forgiveness, once we have that down, then let's get into the finer points, ok? Remember, I'm a "silly girl" so let's take it slow.

Let's also bear in mind the point I am trying to get across : emotion and forgiveness are not the same.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh

How do those who are saved, get saved?
Let's see what Romans 10:9-10 states:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is contrary to Christ-likeness. But that's a problem you need to deal with.

Let's go at this one thing at a time. First the general idea of forgiveness, once we have that down, then let's get into the finer points, ok? Remember, I'm a "silly girl" so let's take it slow.
Yes, you are a silly girl. For Jesus was clear that repentance isn't always required to forgive someone.

Let's also bear in mind the point I am trying to get across : emotion and forgiveness are not the same.
Forgiveness is a decision to forgive, to no longer reserving the personal right to being angry at the person whom wronged you, releasing the right you have to harbor unforgiveness--that's forgiveness...

In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Freak

Let's see what Romans 10:9-10 states:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Any repentance involved in that, do you think?

That is contrary to Christ-likeness. But that's a problem you need to deal with.

Isn't that what we are talking about right now?

Yes, you are a silly girl. For Jesus was clear that repentance isn't always required to forgive someone.

Are we talking the woman in adultery or what Christ uttered on the cross, or did you have an example you wanted to share?

Forgiveness is a decision to forgive, to no longer reserving the personal right to being angry at the person whom wronged you, releasing the right you have to harbor unforgiveness--that's forgiveness...

So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh

Any repentance involved in that, do you think?
Yes. My Scriptural points stands however.

Are we talking the woman in adultery or what Christ uttered on the cross, or did you have an example you wanted to share?
No. We are talking about this...

In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that

So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?
No. The driving factor is this:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Get it?
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Freak

Yes. My Scriptural points stands however.

So when we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts Jesus raised from the dead, it's because we have repented.

I wonder why it has to be "confess with our mouths"? What are we confessing? And why does it have to be, "believe with our hearts" that we believe?

Please answer my question, "So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?"
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh

Please answer my question, "So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?"
I said: NO!!! Why are you confused? The driving force to forgive is in the words of Jesus...



Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Alright, then we agree, hatred and anger shouldn't be the driving force to forgive or not. Hatred and anger can be dealt with seperately from forgiveness. Thank you.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh

Alright, then we agree, hatred and anger shouldn't be the driving force to forgive or not. Hatred and anger can be dealt with seperately from forgiveness. Thank you.
The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.
 

firechyld

New member
The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.

The only reason you forgive people is because Jesus told you to?

Am I the only one who finds that a little scary?
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It would be scary if God didn't give us a good reason *not* to forgive if the offender didn't repent.
 

firechyld

New member
The impression that those words give me is that if Freak wasn't a Christian, he'd have no objection to being a horrible person.

While I appreciate that Christians feel that their religion makes them better people, surely one should have a certain degree of intrinsic moral fibre that isn't imposed by religious belief...
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Firechyld - I agree. But as to Freak, he is a Christian and he is a rotton egg, both. I also agree with Yorzhik, that actual forgiveness is taught upon the condition that they offending party repents. I say that forgivness can NOT happen unless the offender repents. Offenses and the amending of offenses are always a two way street, it's always takes two or more people to offend and make amends. You are only responsible for your own actions, and forgiveness is really at the essence of what it means to be saved. So imagine how damaging it is to portray that you can forgive any and everyone no matter what, even if they never repent, you just forgive them. Then the next time they think about the forgiveness of sins unto salvation, and that God is a loving God like the forgiving Christian's all talk about, then probably all will end up getting saved since forgiveness is so ubiquitous.

It is absolutely impossible to rightly forgive someone if they are not sorry for doing what they did. You can release whatever personal animosity towards them, but, you can not forgive the unrepentant. Repentance is not an optional ingrediant, it is manditory. And you can try to forgive someone even though you are not sure about their repentance, so you can offer it, but if the other person is not repentant, then there is nothing you can do about that but maybe pray for them.
 
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Delmar

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quote:
The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.



Originally posted by firechyld

The only reason you forgive people is because Jesus told you to?

Am I the only one who finds that a little scary?

misquoted him a bit don't you think? To say"The driving force should be" is WAY different from saying there is no other defensable reason for.
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
firechyld - Also, not only do Christians do what God tells us to do, as in, just because He tells us to do it, we also respect and promote much of the common norms and standards of right and wrong, including common sense and reason, and common social curtsies and moral notions as well. And more to the point, I strive to be Christlike, not because God tells to be so, but because I love Him and want to be like Him.

Many Christians live a moral and upright life prior to becoming a Christian, they opposed crime and gross immorality, they were a helpful and productive part of society, they even helped the little old lady across the street and made occasional financial contributions to local charities where it seems that they are really making an important difference. There are universally accepted rights and wrongs, and to a very large degree, unsaved people many times tend to honor and respect these unwritten standards. And a person can do that even after they become saved, so it need not always be that Christians act because they were told to act a certain way.

There is an apparently universal moral sentiment about fairness. If someone serves to swindle you, or betray your trust in order to rob you of what is yours, then almost without any exception, man reacts the same, they object on the grounds of fairness, that it is unfair to rob and swindle. Not convinced, ask any skeptic to go to work for a company that agrees with you to pay you so much per hour, and then when the time comes for payment, they swindle you out of your paycheck with some bogus reasoning that is totally unfair. What if you went to a doctor to have a legitimate operation, and instead of removing a cyst, they leave it in there and take out a kidney and say 70% of your small intestines to sell them in a black market organ theft ring. That would be wrong and it would not take a Christian to rightly convict such terrible behavior as being even criminal.

You might be tempted to call that animal instinct, the instinct for survival, and to some extent I agree, it is natural for beings to want to serve themselves with that which preserves their life and happiness, but there is no reasonable explanation for why beings seem preprogrammed with life protecting standards including moral standards of right and wrong. If we are all a product of something other than intelligent design, then the fact that life is surrounded with logically sound principles and standards and norms, is beyond the scope of coincidence. The incredible order and logical consistency in design is one of the strongest indicators for intelligence being behind all of life. In fact, when you simply consider microbiology, recent times have made significant end roads that point all the more strongly for intelligent design verses origins without intelligent design.

DNA is one of the coolest studies in biology, and at the cellular level, it is a science that is fabulously infused with pre-determined intelligent design. I mean think of it for a split second. A human being, even a partially formed baby in the mother's womb is a system that is far more complex than a Boeing 747, yet that little baby was ultimately formed from one single cell we call an egg from the mother, and one single sperm cell from the father, and then all you have to do is have proper implantation in the womb, add warmth and nutrients and in time, out comes a human being! Think of it. From a tiny tiny speck, on that single DNA strand, is the genetic blueprint of you. You went from being a microscopic dot with no form or comely design, almost pure information with some wonderful building blocks, and then that tiny thing self replicated into you. The complexity and order and design involved is simply staggering. And don't forget, it is not enough to know what is involved in order to make you, you must also execute every single instruction in the right order and have every function carried out correctly before the next function can proceed, it is an interdependent system with so many variables that it is way way waaaaay hideously complex. Intelligent design is the only reasonable response.

There simply is no reasonable view that says that humanity is any other product than from an intelligent design. God says that even if you do not have the law of God, like you never read nor heard about the bible for example, and yet you naturally do the things in the law, it becomes a law unto yourself showing itself as written on your heart. See God has created us with a profound understanding about Himself and His eternal attributes which include, right and wrong (i.e. fairness, rational sense, etc) even though most reject God in subversive unrighteousness. So even unsaved people have a really good idea how we should treat one another because we are created after the image of God on purpose, so we do not necessarily need the bible to teach us to not lie and steal, everyone has a God and good and bad awareness inside them, and it is always good to do good, and it is always bad to do evil.

If you get a chance, a must see video is "Unlocking the Mystery of Life", produced by Illustra media, "the scientific case for intelligent design". You can get it at Bob Enyart's website KGOV dot com, or any number of places. But it is HIGHLY recommended for the pure edutainment of it all. They do an outstanding job of explaining highly technical aspects of life, in common man's terms, and they show pictures too, smile, they use state of the art animations and take us into the inner workings of the cell to help us all visualize what is actually going on, and how excitingly intelligent the foundation of life really is at the cellular level. Of special note is a huge issue called, irreducible complexity. See, in any system that is fundamentally formed from chance or random events, you must get more and more simple, so that the not smart design principle, chance, can actually happen. But the exact opposite is what actually happens. At the most foundational and microscopic levels, biological systems are ridiculously complex, so much so that intelligent design is virtually demanded in order to even conceive how life began and continues. Useful function and the order of design just demolish the tierd notions of unintelligent design. I really and truely hope you get that video, one time it was on PBS and it is a top notch presentation, so it MIGHT be in local libraries, not sure. A star in this presentation is Michael Behe who is a best selling author and theoretician against Darwinian evolution. I can give you an example of irreducable complexity in just a few scant sentances if you would like a taste of the brunt of this hugely important issue. But I have written so much already. I hope this helps. :D
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
Thanks for the tip Delmar, I went to http://www.illustramedia.com and downloaded a video clip for that movie, and it is pretty cool. The speaker on the video clip used to be a leading proponent of chemical evolution but after more and more evidence was in about the incredible complexity of even the most basic of living cells (or cell organisms), he became persuaded that evolution was wrong, and that intelligent design was right.

Of special note, the process illustrated of forming a protein was largely obscured so that it did not easily make sense what was being produced. If you look carefully, you can barely see that there is a string of molecules being formed immediately below the assembly line. Unfortunately that part of the video got munched for downsizing for the internet but the video has it all well illustrated. It's a .rm file so most computers should have a player to play it. :)
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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I'm very glad Freak is gone. It was counter-productive to the discussion.
 
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