For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
....................:think:.................... :smokie: ...............:think:................STP, can you elaborate? So, in 2 Cor who exactly is Paul not telling those things he heard in the 3rd heaven? You are saying that he told the Jews/Gentiles, but not the alien Gentiles....? And how do you differentiate between the sets of gentiles?
Thanks!.....I may have to leave here for awhile, so no hurry on an answer.

Pam,

Those "unlawful words" that he could not yet speak to the Corinthians was the fact that the gospel would eventually be going far hence to the Gentiles. These are the very same Gentiles who would have been cursed by the promise of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

At the time he wrote 2 Corinthians, the gospel was only sent to Jews and God-fearing Gentiles. It was not yet sent far hence.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Pam,

Those "unlawful words" that he could not yet speak to the Corinthians was the fact that the gospel would eventually be going far hence to the Gentiles. These are the very same Gentiles who would have been cursed by the promise of Gen 12:1-3 (KJV).

At the time he wrote 2 Corinthians, the gospel was only sent to Jews and God-fearing Gentiles. It was not yet sent far hence.

Thanks STP. But that brings up another question. If Paul was keeping the fact that those outside "far hence" in 2 Cor. would be in the Body, and you said that the Body of Christ (a new creation= no Jew, no Gentile) was Jew/Gentile + those far hence...then he really wasn't proclaiming the Body at all in 2 Cor.
And the Body is not Jew and Gentile as one, but the 2 groups are 1)Jew/Gentile and 2) Far hence gentile....? Can you explain that??
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
And the Body is not Jew and Gentile as one, but the 2 groups are 1)Jew/Gentile and 2) Far hence gentile....? Can you explain that??

:wave2: I'll try!

During Acts, Paul was sent to the Jew first and also the Greek. He would go into a new town, go into the synagogue, and preach to Jews and Gentiles (who were aligned with them). These Gentiles were blessed because they got to hear Paul's gospel. Many believed and were added to the Body of Christ.

By Acts 28, the gospel was no longer being sent to "the Jew first". God sent Paul's gospel to all Gentiles (even those who were not aligned with the Jews). They did not deserve a blessing (in accord with Gen 12:1-3) but were blessed anyway, by God's grace. They got to hear Paul's gospel as well. And, 2000 years later it got all the way to Pittsburgh and to North Carolina!


So, these are the twain that formed the new man.


Acts - Jews and Gentiles in the promises
Post Acts - inclusion of Gentiles outside the promises

They are now fellowheirs in the same Body.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
you said that the Body of Christ (a new creation= no Jew, no Gentile) was Jew/Gentile + those far hence...then he really wasn't proclaiming the Body at all in 2 Cor.

Yes, he was preaching Body truth, he just wasn't allowed to reveal yet the great scope of the Body (the inclusion of those outside the promises).
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Yes, he was preaching Body truth, he just wasn't allowed to reveal yet the great scope of the Body (the inclusion of those outside the promises).

:the_wave: Thanks for elaborating STP....and still keeping it short...I like the smaller posts! Anyway, I need to think about this and get back to you.....
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
During Acts, Paul was sent to the Jew first and also the Greek. He would go into a new town, go into the synagogue, and preach to Jews and Gentiles (who were aligned with them). These Gentiles were blessed because they got to hear Paul's gospel. Many believed and were added to the Body of Christ.

By Acts 28, the gospel was no longer being sent to "the Jew first". God sent Paul's gospel to all Gentiles (even those who were not aligned with the Jews). They did not deserve a blessing (in accord with Gen 12:1-3) but were blessed anyway, by God's grace. They got to hear Paul's gospel as well. And, 2000 years later it got all the way to Pittsburgh and to North Carolina!


So, these are the twain that formed the new man.


Acts - Jews and Gentiles in the promises
Post Acts - inclusion of Gentiles outside the promises

They are now fellowheirs in the same Body.

and STP in the next post:

Yes, he was preaching Body truth, he just wasn't allowed to reveal yet the great scope of the Body (the inclusion of those outside the promises).

Hi brother from North Carolina! Greeting from a Pittsburgh saint! Ready to continue discussing??

In Rom.1:16 Paul says that the Gospel of Christ is the power of salvation to every one who believes- the Jew(first) and the Greek. The Gospel of Christ would have to be the Body Gospel- the Gospel given to Paul by the risen Christ. Paul's point here is that this "new" gospel is "new" because it is the same gospel to both Jew and Gentile. It saves us into the One Body where there is no Greek or Jew.

The "twain" made into One Body are not
1) those in the promises (Jew and Gentile)
2) those without the promises (other Gentiles)

The "twain" that comprise the One Body are:
1) the Jew
2) the Gentile

In Rom 1:16, 2:9,10 Paul is in the midst of explaining why all are under condemnation and how all have sinned....the Jew because they had the Law, the Gentiles because the Law was written in their hearts. The Gentiles encompass ALL nations non-Jews. So that the Law does not save, but condemns- by the written Word or the Law in our hearts (the God-given awareness that is part of the human heart).
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Hi brother from North Carolina! Greeting from a Pittsburgh saint! Ready to continue discussing??

In Rom.1:16 Paul says that the Gospel of Christ is the power of salvation to every one who believes- the Jew(first) and the Greek. The Gospel of Christ would have to be the Body Gospel- the Gospel given to Paul by the risen Christ. Paul's point here is that this "new" gospel is "new" because it is the same gospel to both Jew and Gentile. It saves us into the One Body where there is no Greek or Jew.

The "twain" made into One Body are not
1) those in the promises (Jew and Gentile)
2) those without the promises (other Gentiles)

The "twain" that comprise the One Body are:
1) the Jew
2) the Gentile

In Rom 1:16, 2:9,10 Paul is in the midst of explaining why all are under condemnation and how all have sinned....the Jew because they had the Law, the Gentiles because the Law was written in their hearts. The Gentiles encompass ALL nations non-Jews. So that the Law does not save, but condemns- by the written Word or the Law in our hearts (the God-given awareness that is part of the human heart).

:wave2: Hey Pammy!


To the Jew first, and also to the Greek. This is the first group! They were Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. They were blessed with hearing Paul's "Body" gospel. The letters written during Acts (1-2 Cor, Romans, 1-2 Thess, Gal) reflect this.

By the end of Acts, Israel was cast away. Paul's "Body" gospel was no longer to the Jew first. There was no more advantage for the Jew. Paul's gospel is sent to all types of men, including alien Gentiles. These Gentiles became fellowheirs, not by promise, but by the gospel. The letters written after Acts reflect this expanded scope (Eph, Phil, Col, 1-2 Tim, Titus, Philemon).

By nature, the promise in Gen 12:1-3 excluded many! As long as there was a great nation, some would be excluded from the promises by not blessing that nation. When that nation is cast away, the promise goes with it. The gospel of the grace of God includes even those who had previously been excluded by that promise to Abraham.


We are not far apart. I know that you can see that there were some Jews and Gentiles who could call Abraham father, and there were some Gentiles who could not call Abraham father!


Good discussion!
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Hi there again....I have some time now...before "Criminal Minds" is on TV......so I wanted to comment and ask some things.

I realize that you claim to be Mid-Acts, but this is almost what I hear form the Acts 28 position. The difference is that the 28ers say that the Body started after Israel was cast away, but your position is saying that ALL of the body truth was not revealed until after Acts 28.(if I am understanding you correctly) I have a problem with that stand (and also with the Acts 28 one ).

Here's why: After the first revealing of Body by Paul( mid-acts), he did not hold back any "secrets".
The whole "newness" of this gospel was that now all are one(=equal) in Christ. There was no "Jew" as far as a different hope, and there was no "Gentile" for the same reason. The message was that all that were saved NOW would be in the Body of Christ. All "Gentiles"- near and far. These were the two groups. Not three, as your position says in all actuality.

Rom 1:16;2:9,10 are the only places that I see that phrase "Jew first...and also to the Gentile(Greek)" The point Paul was stressing was that even though the Jew's hope was first (in honor and rank- not in time since the gentile hope was before Abraham), they will be jugged the same (2:9-10) at the Great White Throne judgment. Because God is no respecter of persons!

"Anyone" could get saved....even those "far hence" into the Body after Paul's revelation. But Paul honored the Jewish Hope because there were Jewish saints alive...they had a different hope than the Body. The 12 apostles would have 12 thrones and rule on earth. All the Gentile nations would pay their dues to the Nation Israel.....etc.

But there was due process.....the manifestation of the Israel's rejection of their Messiah for the formal turning away that Paul states.

In Romans Paul talks about the olive tree. in Rom 11:1 Paul would not be cast away- forever. The promises to them were set aside, but in the future they would be a Nation again- Israel blessed in God. Israel's rejection is not final.

Well, I guess that's it for now. I'm enjoying the discussion!!

:wave:
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
:wave2:
We are not far apart. I know that you can see that there were some Jews and Gentiles who could call Abraham father, and there were some Gentiles who could not call Abraham father!


Good discussion!

Yep, very good discussion!

We are not that far apart in the issue of Mid Acts and how the Body of Christ differs from the other hopes, right!

But I think that I can't see that there were some Jews and Gentiles who could call Abraham "father" and some Gentiles who couldn't. :sherlock: I would think that it was only Jews that could call him "father" in the technical sense, but Paul transcends that "fatherhood":

Here's my understanding of those passages......
Abraham was the Father of the Jews, in that he was the initial "convert". He was saved into that Hope BEFORE he was manifested outwardly to anyone....his name was Abram. At the point in time when he was manifested to others outside of himself, God changed his name to Abraham Gen 17:5, and Sarai to SarahGen. 17:5. The Jewish hope was proclaimed then. But Abraham was saved before that point, his faith was counted for righteousness. Heb 11:8. In Rom.3:9-12, Paul talks about how Abraham was made righteous in uncircumcision.....and in that sense he is the father of "us" in the Body. Paul's point being that one is saved before any outward sign is performed....because it is not that which saves us. It is faith given us by God. That is the case in all dispensations.

( Saul's name was also changed...after he was saved into the Body. But when the Body was outwardly revealed, his name was changed to Paul. )
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Hi Pam,

I realize that you claim to be Mid-Acts, but this is almost what I hear form the Acts 28 position. The difference is that the 28ers say that the Body started after Israel was cast away, but your position is saying that ALL of the body truth was not revealed until after Acts 28.(if I am understanding you correctly) I have a problem with that stand (and also with the Acts 28 one ).
Those who hold to the Acts 28 position believe there are two bodies of Christ. STP does not believe that there are two bodies of Christ. Neither do I and I believe much the same as he.

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There are two groups that make up that "one body", "fellowheirs, and of the same body", the "one new man".

Ephesians 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

There are the "we" "who first trusted in Christ"

Ephesians 1:12 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

beginning with the the apostle Paul

1 Timothy 1:16 KJV Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

and including the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians. These were those to whom Paul was first sent. Here is Paul recalling what the risen ascended Lord Jesus Christ told him in Acts 9. Look at what it says at the end of verse 17 taking note of "unto whom NOW I send thee.

Acts 26:16-17 KJV But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Here they are:

Acts 13:26 KJV Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Here they are again~"to the Jew first and also to the Greek":

Romans 1:16 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But unto them which are called, "both Jews and Greeks”. Paul is already sent to both Jews AND Greeks.

1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
They had a hope. They were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were in the promise.

Galatians 3:29 KJV And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks.

The Ephesians were Gentiles OUTSIDE of the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (such as we). These Gentiles in time past had no hope!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These Ephesians are of the "ye" whom "also trusted"

Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

These are Gentiles that Paul became a prisoner for when he revealed the vision:

Please take note of for "I will send thee" far hence unto the Gentiles. Earlier you saw a "now I send thee" and now you see a "will send thee". These are not the same sendings!

Acts 22:21-22 KJV And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

But now!

Ephesians 2:13-15 KJV But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And again showing the two groups in the ONE Body of Christ~

"that he might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross
the "you which were afar off" (like the Ephesians) and the "them that were nigh" (the those who "first trusted"...)

Ephesians 2:16-18 KJV And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Here's why: After the first revealing of Body by Paul( mid-acts), he did not hold back any "secrets".
Let’s take a look.

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

“for I will say the truth: but now I forbear”. Paul is definitely holding back.

The whole "newness" of this gospel was that now all are one(=equal) in Christ. There was no "Jew" as far as a different hope, and there was no "Gentile" for the same reason.
The Jew still had the advantage

Romans 3:1-2 KJV What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

And the Greeks by association were in a privileged position as they feared the God of Abraham. They were in the right place at the right time (synagogues Acts 14:1 KJV, Acts 17:1-2, Acts 18:4 KJV) to receive a blessing as promised (Genesis 12:3 KJV). The blessing they would receive was Paul’s my gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Romans 16:25-27 KJV)

The message was that all that were saved NOW would be in the Body of Christ. All "Gentiles"- near and far. These were the two groups.
There was a middle wall of partition that separated Gentiles near and far during the Acts period. It was not revealed that it was broken down until Paul made it known.

Ephesians 2:13-18 KJV But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Not three, as your position says in all actuality.
Not three, but two groups in the ONE body. I hope the above will help you to see what is the fellowship of the mystery. :)

Ephesians 3:9-12 KJV And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Hello heir!

Thanks for the reply. I think that I need to clarify a little bit. I do not think that there are 3 that become one Body....Scriptures do say that the 2 that are 1 are Jew and Gentile. My point was that if you take Jew and Gentile as One up to the end of Acts, then come out with more revelation that after Acts 28, there is added another group- the 'far hence" Gentiles...that, to me, is now 3 groups: Jews, Gentiles near and Gentiles far. I don't hold to that! :nono:
Here are some other comments to you post:

Those who hold to the Acts 28 position believe there are two bodies of Christ. STP does not believe that there are two bodies of Christ. Neither do I and I believe much the same as he.

Yes, I agree. Acts 28ers say that the Body of Christ was not revealed until after Acts 28 (the casting away of Israel) Again: It seems to me that if you have SOME people "eligible" for Body Membership up to Acts 28, and then add ANOTHER group after Acts 28....that would be now 3 distict grouops made into One.

beginning with the the apostle Paul

1 Timothy 1:16 KJV Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

and including the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians. These were those to whom Paul was first sent. Here is Paul recalling what the risen ascended Lord Jesus Christ told him in Acts 9. Look at what it says at the end of verse 17 taking note of "unto whom NOW I send thee.

Acts 26:16-17 KJV But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Here they are:

Acts 13:26 KJV Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Here they are again~"to the Jew first and also to the Greek":

Romans 1:16 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But unto them which are called, "both Jews and Greeks”. Paul is already sent to both Jews AND Greeks.

Seeing that in the Body of Christ, there IS no"Jew" nor "gentile" recognition, Paul would be violating Body principal if he were favoring the Jew.

Acts is a book of the history of what took place then: it is the written record of the fall of Israel...their rejection, as a nation, of their Messiah. Paul went to Israel with the message of their Messiah....and to tell them about the Body Mystery that was revealed to him. Acts 28:17-20, PAul tells the Jews that he was bound for their gospel...he had been preaching to them about their Messiah...but they rejected Him. In GAl. 2:1 Paul states how he went privately to them in Jerusalem about the Body.....he honored their Hope.

After Acts 28, Paul went only to tell the Body gospel....his gospel was to the "nations" (i.e. gentiles= all nations, including Israel) sicne Israel was cast off now....for a season. (Romans goes into great detail addressing the fact that God would NOT cast off His people forever.)

1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
They had a hope. They were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were in the promise.

Galatians 3:29 KJV And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks.

The Ephesians were Gentiles OUTSIDE of the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (such as we). These Gentiles in time past had no hope!

I disagree. All nations outside of Israel were "Gentiles" . The Gentile Hope existed before Abraham. Abram was called out of the nations. At that point in time, God established him as a nation seperate from all others....and so it was to the day of Jesus and Paul. If you weren't Jew, you were Gentile.

That's about all I can write for now.

Pam
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Pam :wave2:


We can just look at Paul's words and see who his gospel was sent to, and when.



Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.



Paul, near the beginning of his ministry, says that the word of this salvation is sent to Israel and those among them who fear God (certain Gentiles).




Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


I will - as of this time, it hadn't happened yet


Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


Acts 28 - it is sent far hence unto the Gentiles.





Once again, the two groups which were made one are not Jew + Gentile, but rather those in the promises of Abraham + those outside the promises of Abraham.


If Israel was cast away at the time of Acts 28, what hope did they now have?


Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.


Their only hope was that the gospel was being sent to those outside the promises (of which they had now become since their casting away)



:e4e:
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Hello heir!

Thanks for the reply. I think that I need to clarify a little bit. I do not think that there are 3 that become one Body....Scriptures do say that the 2 that are 1 are Jew and Gentile. My point was that if you take Jew and Gentile as One up to the end of Acts, then come out with more revelation that after Acts 28, there is added another group- the 'far hence" Gentiles...that, to me, is now 3 groups: Jews, Gentiles near and Gentiles far. I don't hold to that! :nono:
Here are some other comments to you post:
That to you is three groups, but that's not what it is. I'll demonstrate using your own words.

Yes, I agree. Acts 28ers say that the Body of Christ was not revealed until after Acts 28 (the casting away of Israel) Again: It seems to me that if you have SOME people "eligible" for Body Membership up to Acts 28, and then add ANOTHER group after Acts 28....that would be now 3 distict grouops made into One.
Count the groups that you just laid out here. There are two. Using your terms, we have the “some people eligible for body membership up to Acts 28”. That’s one. Then you have “another group after Acts 28”.That’s two. You are the one calling it three when in all actuality it is twain that makes up the one new man. Ephesians 2:15 KJV


Seeing that in the Body of Christ, there IS no"Jew" nor "gentile" recognition, Paul would be violating Body principal if he were favoring the Jew.
During the time of the book of Acts Paul was going to the Jew first and also to the Greek. He was gathering in the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew. Romans 11. The hardest part for some to recognize is that those people were IN the commonwealth of Israel. They were allied not aliens. They were in the covenants of promise not strangers. They had hope. You can try all day long, but you cannot say the same thing about the Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:12-13 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
:wave2: STP! Sorry it takes me so long between posts sometimes. I actually started answering a few times before and had to stop because of time. Since my plans for today are on hold (and more than likely getting cancelled) I thought I'd try to finish today!

Pam :wave2:


We can just look at Paul's words and see who his gospel was sent to, and when.



Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.



Paul, near the beginning of his ministry, says that the word of this salvation is sent to Israel and those among them who fear God (certain Gentiles).

What is "this salvation" ? It isn't the Body Hope....this was Paul telling the Jews of their Messiah Who came, and how salvation is in Him. The whole chapter 13 is Paul going over the Jewish (O.T.) Scriptures and how Jesus Christ fulfilled this. That Word of salvation was sent to the Jew. Paul confirms this. But Paul does not speak anywhere in that "sermon" of the Mystery, the Body. In the gospels, we saw that there were disciples of John the Baptist who had not yet heard about Jesus. Paul was telling these saints that Christ had come and He was the fulfillment of Scripture.


Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.


I will - as of this time, it hadn't happened yet

Here also, you have to put this in context. Here, Paul is telling them about his "salvation" testimony. The road to Damascus. Going to Ananias. The fear that Paul had because he imprisoned the Jews....it was then that God said to him "I will" send you ....Paul was quoting God there, an account of what happened before Acts 22.

Paul met privately with the Jerusalem elders in Acts 15, to tell them about this new revelation. The Body- Jew and Gentile as One, one faith, one hope, one Lord, One Father (Eph.4). Gal. 2:1-2 fills us in on more of the details of Acts 15.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


Acts 28 - it is sent far hence unto the Gentiles.

The book of Acts is an account of the Fall of Israel. It is due process. They rejected their Messiah ( as a nation.) There were Jewish believers among that group) . Paul was given the Mystery....where there is neither Jew nor Greek. Notice, it does not say where there is neither "those in the promises of Abraham and those outside of the promises of Abraham".

I am wondering what you think that the Mystery was? I mean, if the far hence Gentiles were included only after Acts 28, yet, you say that the two that were made one were the ones before Acts 28 and the ones after 28...then what was Paul preaching before to them concerning the Great Mystery? It just doesn't make sense.

PAul was sent to the nations (ethnos), which includes Israel. All the Gentile nations.....everyone and anyone that got saved after Paul were saved into the One Body. The Body Mystery was revealed in Acts 9...Saul's name was changed to Paul, the Gentile version of '"Saul". (just as when the Jewish Hope was revealed, Abram's name was changed to Abraham)

Paul decreed in Acts 28 that Israel was officially cast away.....but not forever. That is what he goes into great detail in the book of Romans about.

Ok, so, that's it for now,

looking forward to your answers,

Pam
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
:wave2: Thanks for getting back to us, Pam!

In the interest of cutting to the chase and getting to the real heart of this issue, let me ask you this.





Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.






Do you see yourself anywhere in this promise? (The Gentile believers in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, and Thessalonica could. They were blessed with having Paul's "Body" gospel sent to them)



If the great nation mentioned in Gen 12 was cast away with the close of Acts, how could anyone possibly bless them?



This is the crux of the issue in understanding the difference (in how they were reached) between the "Acts Gentiles" and "Post-Acts Gentiles" that are in the same Body.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
:wave2: Thanks for getting back to us, Pam!
You are most welcome! :e4e:
In the interest of cutting to the chase and getting to the real heart of this issue, let me ask you this.





Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.






Do you see yourself anywhere in this promise? (The Gentile believers in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, and Thessalonica could. They were blessed with having Paul's "Body" gospel sent to them)



If the great nation mentioned in Gen 12 was cast away with the close of Acts, how could anyone possibly bless them?



This is the crux of the issue in understanding the difference (in how they were reached) between the "Acts Gentiles" and "Post-Acts Gentiles" that are in the same Body.

Israel never did take that position...at the time of Christ, they were not in power....they were not "blessing" any nations. Israel was a nation under the Roman rule. The 12 apostles were excited because they thought the Kingdom would be set up since Jesus the Messiah had come. But God set Israel aside, and introduced the Body. Romans is about how God may have set them aside...but has NOT cast them off forever. After the rapture, He will once more deal with Israel as a nation. And then they will rule in the Millenium, thereby fulfilling that promise... all nations will be blessed through them.

The promise given to Abraham was that through him ALL the families of the earth would be blessed. And yes, any that cursed them would be cursed. We did see that partially fulfilled when they came out of the wilderness to take the Land.

Since Genesis states that ALL the families of the earth would be blessed, I see that there are 2 groups there: 1)Abraham's "family"...and 2) everyone else.

If you say that "(The Gentile believers in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, and Thessalonica could. They were blessed with having Paul's "Body" gospel sent to them)"
you are mixing the hopes, and putting the Body under Israel...? Paul was given the Mystery.....a new gospel, where there is no division of nations. Everyone is no on equal footing as far as our hope goes. To be the extension of Christ, His Body, ruling from the Throne with Him....over the angels, over Israel, over the Gentiles....when we take our position in the future.

YOU asked How they were reached , the difference between "acts Gentiles " and "post Acts Gentiles".....how do you see a difference? It's the same gospel, to the NATIONS....Paul says, that would be ALL nations. I don't get it, how can you be Mid-Acts but still say things changed after Acts 28?? As far as the Body is concerned, the message was the same throughout. No Jew, no Gentile- all ONE in Christ.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
:think:Hmmmmm....what happened here?? I'm pretty sure that I haven't stumped everyone from answering my last post.....come on now, let's hear the "No you are wrong"s :nono:

I am leaving on a vacation may 10
 
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