For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I don't understand Stryper's question!
I just think Paul 'experienced' the Rapture and saw the great scope his ministry would have...it would have been easy to boast and glory about this, but at the time he wrote 2 Cor he was still going to the Jew first and gathering a remnant. He was not allowed to speak the unlawful words he heard, yet.
Until here,
Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
Acts 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
Acts 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
This is why it's crucial to understand the difference between the Gentiles he preached to in the synagogues (it was lawful) and the far hence alien Gentiles (not lawful). The dispensation of the grace of God is for alien Gentiles, like you and me.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Yes, and whichever it was, it didn't change what he heard.Hey Deetsy,
I believe Paul was speaking of himself being caught up. He wasn't sure if he was caught up in a body, or just his spirit, or a vision...God knoweth.
"unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter":
2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The Jews who persuaded the people certainly thought he was dead. Like some say today, they left him for dead. The Bible says they drew him out of the city. If they didn't think he was dead they would have continued until he was.
Acts 14:19 KJV And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
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heir
TOL Subscriber
Paul was definitely holding out. It wasn't time to reveal it yet.
2 Corinthians 12:5-7 KJV Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Paul was being sent to those being called at that time, both Jews and Greeks Acts 13:26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV, the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew Romans 11. Paul was gathering them into the body of Christ. Had he spilled the beans he would have negatively affected his ministry to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Paul went where he was told to go and to whom he was sent. It wasn't time to go far hence. He had not yet been sent far hence.
I believe what Paul saw while caught up to the third heaven and the vision Paul revealed in Acts 22 when he was come again to Jerusalem (Acts 18) was beneficial in keeping Paul motivated not to give up and to finish his course with joy.
Acts 20:24 KJV But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
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:chuckle: I get that a lot. But this time, I believe it is honestly motivated.
"The road" = the road to Damascus. Why do you think Paul had his rapture after his stoning rather than when Jesus visited him on the road?
heir
TOL Subscriber
:chuckle: I get that a lot. But this time, I believe it is honestly motivated.
"The road" = the road to Damascus. Why do you think Paul had his rapture after his stoning rather than when Jesus visited him on the road?
Hi, Stripe. Where do you get any indication that Paul was caught up to the third heaven on the road to Damascus?
STP seems surer than me, but I've often wondered the same thing: If Paul was actually dead, rather than simply being presumed dead, when stoned at Lystra, and if that's what he was referring to in II Cor. 12.
So keep up the exchange, folks, so I can learn.
Thanks,
Randy
So keep up the exchange, folks, so I can learn.
Thanks,
Randy
Sorry Pam, I missed this post.
I was just wondering if perhaps, that since Israel didn't corporately receive the New Covenant, as prophecied by Jeremiah, and John was written so much later that the other Gospel accounts, that maybe this was the reason that John didn't mention it. :idunno:
Not being dogmatic.....just a theory!
I figure that's the only sure time we know of that God spoke to him.
But I'm not tied to that particular answer.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Galatians 2:1-2 KJV Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.I figure that's the only sure time we know of that God spoke to him.
2 Corinthians 12:1 KJV It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
Acts 22:17-21 KJV And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; 18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. 19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
That's good.
:rotfl:Galatians 2:1-2 KJV Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
2 Corinthians 12:1 KJV It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
Acts 22:17-21 KJV And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; 18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. 19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
That's good.
:mock: Stripe.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The timing (above 14 years ago) and this below satisfies me,
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
And, this is interesting,
Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Acts 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
Again, this can't really be proven, but it seems to fit.
heir
TOL Subscriber
silly man
Pam Baldwin
New member
Hi Saul-to-Paul.
I've been asked recently somewhat along these lines here, as to the "birth" of the "church" (i.e.Body of Christ) So can I pick your brain here?.............................................
lain:.......................I take your silence as a "yes" Being mid-acts, maybe I'm not following you, but the events in Acts 22 happened around 40 AD. 2 Cor was written 57-58AD. So why do you say that Paul was still not dispensing the Body Hope at the time of his writing 2 Cor? That would seem to imply an Acts 28 position to my thinking.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:wave2:
The Body began with Paul in Acts 9.
But, there were some Gentiles outside the promises who were included in the Body after Paul is sent "far hence". (Ephesians, Colossians, you, and me)!
Jews/Gentiles in the promises + Gentiles outside the promises (these two groups are the twain) = one new man in Christ
Pam Baldwin
New member
....................:think:.................... :smokie: ...............:think:................STP, can you elaborate? So, in 2 Cor who exactly is Paul not telling those things he heard in the 3rd heaven? You are saying that he told the Jews/Gentiles, but not the alien Gentiles....? And how do you differentiate between the sets of gentiles?
Thanks!.....I may have to leave here for awhile, so no hurry on an answer.