So you didn't have good news for me then.
Actually, what do you have? A promise?
Stuart
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate
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Actually, what do you have? A promise?
Stuart
No, my answer to your silly retort that He is risen is not Good News, was
lain:What do I have? A "promise?"
He is risen.
lain:You have a platitude then.No, my answer to your silly retort that He is risen is not Good News, was
What do I have? A "promise?"
He is risen.
Stuart
If there was historical fiction being written, to portray him in a good light and to control people, these "nasty words" would have been omitted. Along with many other things.
Like deleting 33,000 emails. Get rid of the evidence. But the gospel writers did not get rid of things.
musterion
Well-known member
Yep. They would have written NOTHING for which anyone could possibly dislike the guy, if they were making it all up.
And making what, exactly, all up?
The RESURRECTION. That thing for which they were killed, to which they witnessed.
I have a skeptics' dictionary. You won't like what it says in there about your fear, guilt, and inability to drop a belief that you know, deep down, is ridiculous.Check your dictionary.
He is risen.
Were you thinking of some other dictionary?
Stuart
In an era where really only the Romans were writing diaries (Jesus isn't mentioned, apart from rare reporting of what christians had claimed about him), and when Jewish writing was allegorical to say the least, you really don't have any reliable evidence for the historicity of Jesus at all.
Really your best bet is to go with what I am telling you: the gospel writers did get history wrong, and they probably should have known better, so there must have been a real person they had in mind when writing the 'history', because otherwise they would not have needed to bend history to make the prophecy fit the life of the prophet.
The only other option is that it was an entirely invented historical fiction, with a fictional messiah character. The one thing you can't claim is the absolute correctness of scripture from an historical point of view. Some christians claim the bible 'Isn't a science textbook', well you can add that it isn't a history book either.
As for the nasty words, in the end they must be part of the prophecy fulfillment, mustn't they. The Jesus character doesn't deny the Jewish books of laws, and that's the point of course.
Stuart
Of course not. Why would those politically opposed to him bring it up? They would not. You have no point to be made here.
Except for the fact that we do. Like Pilate, Herod, Augustus, the documentation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, corroborating the testimony, and in hell Jewish heathen, Josephus, Agrippa. all having interaction. It would be very easy to disprove basic stuff, like arriving at the tomb, where the angel was, where the body was previously laying, the tomb that was new, carved from the rock...etc etc.
:chuckle:
You would have provided an example.
Myself included. But you can't disprove anything. I realize we cannot prove or disprove many things.
CherubRam
New member
Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Why did the Romans record the opinions of the Jews / early christians at all then?
You are describing a history of ancient Palestine, and the point is that like any work of historical fiction, there are real places and people in the backdrop, but the story set there is fictional.
I'm always open to any actual evidence for the existence of Jesus, and I do believe there was such an historical person, but if you look into it you will find there really is little to nothing there to make the case. The two events that are generally agreed to have taken place are the baptism of Jesus and the crucifixion of Jesus. Really, nothing else can be relied upon by the standards of historical investigation.
I'll repeat the two examples I already gave:
* The Census of Quirinius took place in 6CE, 10 years after the death of Herod in 4BCE.
* There was never a rule about having to relocate to ancestral lands to complete a Roman census.
So either Jesus was born at a time when there was no census, or during the census at a time when there was no Herod to slaughter male infants.
There is a great deal on the internet about the scholarship of the historicity of Jesus, and it is a very interesting example of how we have changed in our expectations of what can be said to be 'true' about the past. Did Homer exist? Probably not. What about Socrates? Maybe, but it's not likely the historical Socrates was anything like the Socrates of legend.
Of course it is possible that the gospels are an accurate account. But we cannot know they are, and it is extremely unlikely that they are.
Stuart
Jesus is narrowminded, like it or not.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Quite narrow and exclusive and removes all other "ways" and "gods"
This too:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Seems Jesus just told you how it is.
Atheists boards are more likely, after they whine on christian forums that they are treated like second class citizens, then they chomp at the bit to ban you outright on their boards. IIDB ended because of that very thing.
Best be double-checking that dictionary of yours then.
He is risen.
Not a platitude.
lain:
Lon
Well-known member
I disagree with the pastor, Eugene Peterson, just like you. So did,does Truster. Why fight on an issue where he and I happen to agee with the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, and you? Can it actually be a "Calvinist" issue when a good many of us Calvinists disagree with Eugene Peterson?
Romans 9 "globs of clay" John 15:5 "no personal responsibility"
It 'seems' the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:17) were Pavlovian/Skinnarian. I don't think you have to be Pavlovian or Skinnarian (B.F. Skinner) but I 'think' you have to keep verses in your bible and believe them. Proverbs 16:9
You, yourself, said some pretty awful things to me. Do you take responsibility for those things adverse to the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ? :think: It seems to me, you protest too much. If God doesn't make you a better person, this is all you will ever be, and according to your theology, all on your head. Would you be happy if He leaves you exactly as you are? No change? Don't knee-jerk so much. Don't cuss so much. It is you still stuck in your flesh. The 'GOOD' news about Skinnarian/Pavlovian psychology, is that it means theologically, as well, someone better than you and I, is working on us to get a 'different' response out of us. How much is God, "God" of your life? Imho, the whole way. That makes me Calvinist. Do you pray for Him to work in your life? Mellow you? Cause you love and grace? "IF" you pray for these things, no Calvinist, who is in Christ, does anything less and in those respects, you also are Calvinist by faith in Him and His ability to change you and me. It is Faith. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Calvinists do have a lot of redeemable qualities, even if we are wrong about some things, in your mind. This Calvinist isn't against you. I'm very much for you, and God working Sovereignly in your life. I pray that He changes you, even against your desire or helplessness contrary. Jeremiah 29:11
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: You went past 'skeptic' with that dictionary. Romans 1:19-22 It is intellectually counter-intuitive to assert what you just asserted. It is Certainly, by no means skepticism. Doubt is forgivable. Repression is something altogether different and a sin against your very own soul/self. You are 'harming' yourself by such a statement.
I KNOW there is a God. You've never asked me why or how BECAUSE you don't want to know. That's not skepticism. Your dictionary is the dictionary of denial and repression my friend, and it will only hurt yourself. God is, in fact there. If you are ever interested, ask me how I know. :e4e: