• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

musterion

Well-known member
Biologically possible according to who? You? Well, it's up to you to show that this is the case. Just typing the words "biologically impossible" does not make it so. One could just as easily type "bioilogically possible" or "pigs can fly".

Real science - not your self-serving mystical fairy tales - identifies no possible mechanism for inert matter to be acted upon by any force in nature that would cause the inert matter to organize and assemble itself into living matter. None.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
How am I being dishonest?
Because you ask seemingly open questions when your mind is already firmly made up on them.
Like most Christian fundamentalist creationists you seem to consider yourself an expert in mindreading. Rest assured I ask open-ended questions for a reason, I WANT to know. If my "mind (was) already firmly made up" I'd make nothing but snarky remarks like you and PJ do. Just honestly answer the questions I ask, what harm is there in that? Like I said, I'm open to all rational and testable alternatives.

Well, for something (a "deity"?) that is "unknowable" and "ENTIRELY beyond our comprehension" it is amazing how much Christian fundamentalist creationists claim to know about "him".
Yes, He is entirely unknowable APART FROM that which He revealed to us, soil clown.
Beside the fact you can't possibly know anything about what is unknowable, what specific "revelations" has your version of a deity "revealed". Share with the class, no one else seems interested in doing so despite repeated requests.
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Have you been going to the same online university as musterion?
:chuckle:

No, but I have seen 6 or 7 debates with Hitchins and Dawkins so I've heard all the best arguments atheists can muster. Not all people choose to believe in God and can't be convinced otherwise. I tried not believing for a few years but it didn't take.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Biologically possible according to who? You? Well, it's up to you to show that this is the case. Just typing the words "biologically impossible" does not make it so. One could just as easily type "biologically possible" or "pigs can fly".
Real science -
You guys keep saying this but have a difficult time describing how "real science" investigates and tests the supernatural.

- not your self-serving mystical fairy tales -
Project much?

- identifies no possible mechanism for inert matter to be acted upon by any force in nature that would cause the inert matter to organize and assemble itself into living matter. None.
2000 years ago there was no known mechanism for volcanos. None.
500 years ago there was no known mechanism for disease. None.
250 years ago there was no known mechanism for thunder and lightning. None.
100 years ago there was no known mechanism for sending a man to the Moon. None​

You argue from ignorance.
 
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iouae

Well-known member
Because there is no evidence for it, and plenty of evidence that directly opposes it. It was Christian geologists who first realized this and wrote about it.


All you've done is make an empty assertion.


Again, you're simply assuming your conclusion and imposing it on material that has nothing to do with a global flood. At best, you're assuming that "a mention of meltwater means a global flood occurred", which is a classic non sequitur.

You've still yet to present a single shred of evidence to support your claims.

Jose, If the disappearance of Clovis culture along with megafauna, which is blamed on meltwater and the stopping of ocean currents does not impress you, then at least I have told you where you find evidence of a flood in the geologic column. I don't feel a need to present more evidence beyond having a look at the ark which Ron Wyatt found near Ararat, which I know you have already rejected.

So, when I go on a date, buy a lovely diner, see a movie, make a few jokes, and she still is not impressed, I just move on.

What in the fossil record would it take to convince you there was a worldwide Biblical flood?
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
:mock: magic-invisible-friend clowns, demanding to be taken seriously

(See how easy it is to not offer as anything of value to a discussion?)
You have faith in no creator because you believe it. You base your belief on limited evidence as do we. Therefore, you are guilty of idolatry of science and nature.

Acts 17:16-34 KJV -
[FONT=&quot]Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 So Paul departed from among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.[/FONT]
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
You have faith in no creator because you believe it. You base your belief on limited evidence as do we. Therefore, you are guilty of idolatry of science and nature.

Acts 17:16-34 KJV -
Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
 

Right Divider

Body part
And you know this how?
There is a reliable book that contains the history of that time. You should check it out. It's called the Bible.

Again, let's stay on task. You've asserted that God can be scientifically tested and studied. Try and remember that.

The rules of science are that explanations/answers must be testable. You've claimed that God can be scientifically tested and studied. But so far you've not provided a means to do so.
You say that, but you don't actually believe it unless it suits your preconceived ideas.

I have a question for you: Do you believe that murder is wrong?
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
You have faith in no creator because you believe it.
The absence of the evidence creationists claim to have, yet never present, leads me to "believe" the christian deity is nonexistent

You base your belief on limited evidence as do we.
If by, there is no evidence for your deity, then, yeah, the "evidence" is indeed limited.

Therefore, you are guilty of idolatry of science and nature.
:liberals:

Acts 17:16-34
Is this supposed to be evidence of something? If so, it is severely lacking.
 

Right Divider

Body part
musterion gave two descriptions of HIS version of HIS deity (for the sake of convenience I'm going to assume his descriptions apply to YOUR version of YOUR deity).

  • (1) A creative, designing Intelligence that, of necessity, existed before and exists outside of the space/time/matter "box" of our material universe, and Who is in no way limited by the constraints of that box.

    (2) Unknowable, but that's pretty much what you'd expect with a Deity who exists completely outside of and independent of our space/time/matter box, and so exists ENTIRELY beyond our comprehension.

Please describe the method I should use to identify and study (observe) something that “exists outside of the space/time/matter box”.

See above.

How so?

No, I rule out the supernatural because it can’t be observed and tested. Might you have a “Ghost Busters Spirit Detector" I can borrow?

What rules should we use then? I’m sure the Nobel Committee would be interested in your device capable of detecting the supernatural. Just think of the fame and fortune… not to mention that neat little medal.
You're a great comedian.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Jose, If the disappearance of Clovis culture along with megafauna, which is blamed on meltwater and the stopping of ocean currents does not impress you
It's evidence that a change in ocean currents may have been a factor in the disappearance of the Clovis culture. How you go from that to "therefore the entire earth was flooded" remains a mystery.

then at least I have told you where you find evidence of a flood in the geologic column.
No, you haven't.

I don't feel a need to present more evidence beyond having a look at the ark which Ron Wyatt found near Ararat, which I know you have already rejected.
That you rely on a ridiculous fraud and charlatan like Wyatt speaks for itself.

So, when I go on a date, buy a lovely diner, see a movie, make a few jokes, and she still is not impressed, I just move on.
That's up to you.

What in the fossil record would it take to convince you there was a worldwide Biblical flood?
Evidence that it occurred.
 

Jose Fly

New member
There is a reliable book that contains the history of that time. You should check it out. It's called the Bible.
So your argument is "it's written in a book, therefore it's true"?

You say that, but you don't actually believe it unless it suits your preconceived ideas.
?????????? I've no idea what you're talking about. The fact remains, despite your claim that God can be scientifically tested and studied, you've not provided a means to do so.

I have a question for you: Do you believe that murder is wrong?
Yes (it is by definition), although the question is irrelevant to the issue at hand (scientifically testing God).
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
musterion gave two descriptions of HIS version of HIS deity (for the sake of convenience I'm going to assume his descriptions apply to YOUR version of YOUR deity).

  • (1) A creative, designing Intelligence that, of necessity, existed before and exists outside of the space/time/matter "box" of our material universe, and Who is in no way limited by the constraints of that box.

    (2) Unknowable, but that's pretty much what you'd expect with a Deity who exists completely outside of and independent of our space/time/matter box, and so exists ENTIRELY beyond our comprehension.

Please describe the method I should use to identify and study (observe) something that “exists outside of the space/time/matter box”.

See above.

How so?

No, I rule out the supernatural because it can’t be observed and tested. Might you have a “Ghost Busters Spirit Detector" I can borrow?

What rules should we use then? I’m sure the Nobel Committee would be interested in your device capable of detecting the supernatural. Just think of the fame and fortune… not to mention that neat little medal.
You're a great comedian.
I asked you in several posts to tell me what method I should use to identify and study the immaterial (the supernatural). The only response I receive is, "You're a great comedian". :sigh:

Would you like to try again?
 

Right Divider

Body part
So your argument is "it's written in a book, therefore it's true"?
Nope... not that every book is true, especially ones pertaining to evolution.

?????????? I've no idea what you're talking about. The fact remains, despite your claim that God can be scientifically tested and studied, you've not provided a means to do so.
I think that it's funny that you think that materialist science is "all truth".

Yes (it is by definition), although the question is irrelevant to the issue at hand (scientifically testing God).
By what definition?

No, actually it's extremely relevant. How do you "scientifically" (i.e., from materialism) discover and measure moral principles?

Materialist "science" is not the measure of all "truth".
 
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Right Divider

Body part
I asked you in several posts to tell me what method I should use to identify and study the immaterial (the supernatural). The only response I receive is, "You're a great comedian". :sigh:

Would you like to try again?
You've already proven to like talking to a brick wall. I will not waste my time with you anyone.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Nope... that every book is true, especially ones pertaining to evolution.
Sorry, but I don't know what that sentence is supposed to mean. Could you clarify?

I think that it's funny that you think that materialist science is "all truth".
I've not said anything like that at all.

By what definition?
By the definition of the word. There's a difference between killing someone and murdering someone. The word "murder" specifically refers to an illegal and therefore immoral act of killing someone.

No, actually it's extremely relevant. How do you "scientifically" (i.e., from materialism) discover and measure moral principles?
Discovery of the moral values of a society can be accomplished by the social sciences. I'm not aware of a means to quantify them.

Materialist "science" is not the measure of all "truth".
I never said it was, so I'm not sure who you think that was for.
 
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