ECT Evil Poll ... (4 of 5) ... God made the Devil do it!

[Danoh]

I first saw it on American Pickers.

Mike and Frank bought his tee-pee and personal photo album.

I just looked it up one day, out of plain old curiosity of who the guy was.

Have learned much about much in many many areas of life, as a result of said curiosity acted on, over the years.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

"You use scriptures as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."

Wrong.

I do both.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them".

Good scripture.

How is a man supposed to reprove without using his judgement? Rhetorical?

Already did,

 

[glorydaz]

By "able to choose" do you mean able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature? If this is what you mean by "free will", then this portion of the answer would be "No" as no one possesses this version of free will, which is commonly called libertarian free will. Libertarian freedom is, in fact, the freedom to act contrary to our nature, wants and greatest desires. Responsibility, per this libertarian view, always means that we could have done otherwise.

When asked what caused the person to choose one action over another, libertarian free will proponents will answer that a free act is when no causal, antecedent, laws of nature, desires or other factors are sufficient to incline the will decisively to chose one option or another. The late open theist Clark Pinnock, a well-known defender of this position, asserted that only the kind of freedom, which has the ability to choose the contrary, is genuine freedom. Clark says, “It views a free action as one in which a person is free to perform an action or refrain from performing it and is not completely determined in the matter by prior forces---nature, nurture or even God. Libertarian freedom recognizes the power of contrary choice. One acts freely in a situation if, and only if, one could have done otherwise.” (Most Moved Mover, p. 127)

In other words, per the libertarian free will position, we could acceptably choose to receive Christ apart from a desire to receive Him. :AMR:

But if you do not mean libertarian free will, but rather the liberty of spontaneity, that is, we choose according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose, then, yes, the devil possesses free will.

AMR

I don't like either of those definitions, and I believe God's plan includes more than either of those choices give...at least for human beings. I can't say where satan falls (get it? :rotfl

 

[Truster]

Wrong.

I do both.




Good scripture.



Already did,

You used scripture to support your theory that I must not judge. When I was first converted people were always telling me not to judge. I did a lengthy study and discovered the holy are expected to judge all things and that we are equipped to do so. The religious unregenerate hate it when we judge in public because we shake the foundations of the false doctrine they love so much.

 

[patrick jane]

Until recently you were liking my threads and posts more or at least as much as anyone else on here. So much so you said that you were going to buy me a membership on TOL. Once you said that I had to prevent you thinking that I considered you to be a son of Elohim and a converted man.

I did so in the hope you would seriously and earnestly take note of this and drop your false religion. Instead, you have taken to following me around like a poor lost puppy, but unlike a puppy, you are not cute, although I'm sure you think you are.

It is my sincere hope that you will be converted but that hasn't happened yet.

I liked your threads and posts until I started seeing you condemn others and accuse the brethren. I expect a sum of money before the end of the year and I plan on buying twenty memberships for twenty different posters, not all of them I agree with, just good people that post here and are blue members. I was hoping to do it on the TOL -A-Thon but it looks like it's going to be later than that. I know I am saved and sealed and there's nothing you can do or say to change that. You must think that people have to have the same "experience" you had or it isn't real. You also run the risk of being puffed up with knowledge

 

[glorydaz]

Whatever Susie chose is the choice made from her greatest inclinations at the moment she so chose. What was chosen was what she was most inclined to choose, else she would not have chosen, else she is but an automaton making arbitrary or random choices.

What? We can't play "eenie meenie minee moe" when choosing a bow? God gives us the ability to choose neither or both, simply because we can't make up our mind. We can close our eyes and make a choice, or we can ask someone to choose for us. I don't think a bow is the proper analogy for what is being discussed.

The mind chooses and the will is the power by which this is accomplished. The will and desire never run counter to each other. "Freedom" is the power, opportunity or advantage that people have to do that which they please.

I hate to appear argumentative, dear friend, but Paul seems to say otherwise.

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.​

The will is that by which the mind chooses something. Hence, when we speak of willing we mean to say the mind choosing. The whole of that which moves a person to "will" something is called the motive. The strongest motive is always the driving force behind the will. Motive is the ground or cause of the will—the will is not self-determined, but rather the will is determined, or more properly speaking, the will is as the motive is. Our inclinations (motives) arise from conjunctive elements such as: circumstances, upbringing, maturity, degree of sanctification, the means of grace we avail ourselves of, and so forth. Motives are the antecedent causes which give rise to the act of willing.

Arminians, open theists, and others, claim that the will can come to action without a cause. Well, if we agree God is the necessary first cause of all things, it must be concluded that that which exists without a cause is eternal and the property of eternality can only be ascribed to God. Clearly, we are not gods, hence when we will there is a cause for our willing. The driving cause behind our willing is our motives. The lost possess no motives to glorify God, hence all their willing is at enmity with God.

AMR

I believe scripture proves the lost only lack the power to do what they desire to do on a consistent basis. We were all born with a conscience, and until it's seared through repeated sinning and unbelief, we do our best to follow it. This is why the Gospel of Grace has so much appeal to the lost. What they knew they could never comply with, under the law, they can be accepted by their Creator through the work of the Cross. It's the cross that draws all men.

The test becomes, then, not what we do, but whether we BELIEVE in what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us.

 

[glorydaz]

You used scripture to support your theory that I must not judge. When I was first converted people were always telling me not to judge. I did a lengthy study and discovered the holy are expected to judge all things and that we are equipped to do so. The religious unregenerate hate it when we judge in public because we shake the foundations of the false doctrine they love so much.

(Judging) Discernment is not the same as condemning, as you do, Bluster. Judging all THINGS does not mean you are to judge everybody as degenerate just because they have DISCERNED you are a prideful buffoon.

 

[nikolai_42]

Your stream of consciousness is very valuable to this thread... and I'll spare highlighting the parts I appreciate the most... but they're there.

Thank you for the time you took in thinking this out and verbalizing it.

I should have added this : that I think the whole emphasis on the will of man is focus on a secondary issue. Not a less important one, but evidence of man's reliance on his own ways (at some deeper level, anyway...)

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps
Prov 16:9

The whole chapter is really packed. It opens thus :

The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.
Prov 16:1

...and closes thus :

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Prov 16:33

Restated even more succinctly (for the purposes of this discussion, at least) here :

There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
Proverbs 19:21

Man devises a lot of things, but in the end what he wants is subject to the Lord's will. Isaiah 46:10 more or less declares this outright and Paul confirms it:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

As far as I know, God is the only one of whm this is said - that will and action are both aligned and effectual. And scripture even goes so far as to say that God undermines man's plans (and maintains and upholds His own) :

The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psalm 33:10-11

Paul's own experience with the futility of the will is found in scripture, too :

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:15

So in my mind, the whole argument over free will highlights a couple of things:

1. Man's will really isn't free in the effectual sense.
2. The freedom that man has to desire and will many different things is secondary to the will of God.

Not that man's will is unimportant - since the Lord acknowledges it - but it seems its most useful function...in an eternal sense...is to die :

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luke 22:42

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:9-10

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 8:34-35

So when it comes to discussing it, it seems to me that the maintaining of some degree of what is called free will, but it is trying to keep alive what God has no interest in saving. Our life in Christ is to be an exchanged life - not a better version of what we already have (isn't that what being born again implies?). So the one who is in Christ is - like Paul - a genuine slave of Christ. Yet, as contradictory as it seems (to the natural man, for sure) that man is freer than any unregenerate man. That is liberty in Christ.

 

[Truster]

I liked your threads and posts until I started seeing you condemn others and accuse the brethren. I expect a sum of money before the end of the year and I plan on buying twenty memberships for twenty different posters, not all of them I agree with, just good people that post here and are blue members. I was hoping to do it on the TOL -A-Thon but it looks like it's going to be later than that. I know I am saved and sealed and there's nothing you can do or say to change that. You must think that people have to have the same "experience" you had or it isn't real. You also run the risk of being puffed up with knowledge

The experience I had is called regeneration and yes anyone who professes to be saved needs to be regenerate. They also need to be converted and repentant. Those that have had the experience are unmistakable when it comes to accepting the truth.

I posted a truth on YouTube a year ago and recently it was answered by a brother from Texas who had experienced the effects of regeneration. There was no mistaking the spirit at work in him and so I immediately and without fear of contradiction called him brother.

The truth I posted: " Those that have been truly converted will have an insatiable desire to read the scriptures".

We exchanged some public messages and it was a heart melting privilege to do so.

I know the difference between the hypocrite and the brother and it is always made apparent..."test the spirits".

 

[Truster]

PS

All the religion, theology and doctrine on the planet is not sufficient to cover a hypocrite from the scrutiny of truth inspired by the Holy Spirit.


"For the word of Elohim is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Having been presented with the truth, as found in the word of Elohim, there is always a reaction and that is what we* listen for.

we* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.

 

[Truster]

PPS

The first two things we notice that cuts us* to the heart is impiety and irreverence. You have and display both in abundance.

us* our* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.

Reverence:
deep respect for someone or something...Elohim and our* Saviour.

synonyms: high esteem, high regard, great respect, acclaim, admiration, approbation, approval, appreciation, estimation, favour, recognition; worship, veneration, awe, homage, adoration, deference, honour, praise; liking, affection, love.

You are in direct opposition to this.

 

[patrick jane]

The experience I had is called regeneration and yes anyone who professes to be saved needs to be regenerate. They also need to be converted and repentant. Those that have had the experience are unmistakable when it comes to accepting the truth.

I posted a truth on YouTube a year ago and recently it was answered by a brother from Texas who had experienced the effects of regeneration. There was no mistaking the spirit at work in him and so I immediately and without fear of contradiction called him brother.

The truth I posted: " Those that have been truly converted will have an insatiable desire to read the scriptures".

We exchanged some public messages and it was a heart melting privilege to do so.

I know the difference between the hypocrite and the brother and it is always made apparent..."test the spirits".

So you found one man in Texas who shared your delusion? Have you ever found a sister in Christ?

 

[Truster]

So you found one man in Texas who shared your delusion? Have you ever found a sister in Christ?

I didn't find a man in Texas. He was found by Messiah. He wasn't the first to contact me and I hope he isn't the last, but he maybe...

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Philippians 2:4 Context

1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

[Eagles Wings]

What a defilement of God's Word, 1m1s.

 

[Truster]

Philippians 2:4 Context

1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

It's bad enough when ignorant hypocrites mix the law with the grace of the gospel, but you mix the world with spiritual scriptures.

The NT precepts are a guide for the justified. The more you post the more worldly you show yourself to be and prove the precepts do not apply to you.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I should have added this : that I think the whole emphasis on the will of man is focus on a secondary issue. Not a less important one, but evidence of man's reliance on his own ways (at some deeper level, anyway...)

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps
Prov 16:9

The whole chapter is really packed. It opens thus :

The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.
Prov 16:1

...and closes thus :

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Prov 16:33

Restated even more succinctly (for the purposes of this discussion, at least) here :

There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
Proverbs 19:21

Man devises a lot of things, but in the end what he wants is subject to the Lord's will. Isaiah 46:10 more or less declares this outright and Paul confirms it:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

As far as I know, God is the only one of whm this is said - that will and action are both aligned and effectual. And scripture even goes so far as to say that God undermines man's plans (and maintains and upholds His own) :

The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psalm 33:10-11

Paul's own experience with the futility of the will is found in scripture, too :

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:15

So in my mind, the whole argument over free will highlights a couple of things:

1. Man's will really isn't free in the effectual sense.
2. The freedom that man has to desire and will many different things is secondary to the will of God.

Not that man's will is unimportant - since the Lord acknowledges it - but it seems its most useful function...in an eternal sense...is to die :

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luke 22:42

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:9-10

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 8:34-35

So when it comes to discussing it, it seems to me that the maintaining of some degree of what is called free will, but it is trying to keep alive what God has no interest in saving. Our life in Christ is to be an exchanged life - not a better version of what we already have (isn't that what being born again implies?). So the one who is in Christ is - like Paul - a genuine slave of Christ. Yet, as contradictory as it seems (to the natural man, for sure) that man is freer than any unregenerate man. That is liberty in Christ.

Not all Open Theists believe that God willingly limits His Foreknowledge... but I do... and to be concise... I can explain how I see it... but it remains... a "personal" view... of mine. I fully "KNOW" God is Omnipotent and Omniscient... and "Omniscience" is the word where you would feel like a bit too much extra information is being given... I've written on this here... and I utilize the term "Dynamic Omniscience" to convey that God not only knows all... but knows what every single butterfly wing does to the very fabric of events and how it impacts "ALL" things to the very last detail... however.. I believe that God keeps it at this and doesn't "Peak" into the veil of "time"... but for that which He knows must occur to bring about the most reaching "Salvation" of as "MANY" of all human beings... as possible.

Why did I say this? Why did I go off on this tangent? Because God's "Perception" and chosen mode of "Operation" is a "Known" "Speculation". Just ask Job.

"Freewill" is not "Speculation"... however... and that old... deceitful heart... gets overhauled by the Holy Spirit of Jesus... to change our Deceitful "Heart of Stone" into a Holy Spirit led... "Heart of Flesh".

Seeing as Jesus says... If the Son sets you Free... I believe that Free is "FREE". The points you make are excellent... but remember... Allegiance of one's choice to God is different than "Servitude without Choice".

Bond Servants... That's what we are... when we Pledge Allegiance to Jesus.

The continual effort of "Reformed Theology" to "Minimize" God's desire for "Autonomous Beings" is a "Deadly Game".

To be precise... some go the full blown Hyper side... like [MENTION=15467]Truster[/MENTION] . This is the result of over imbibing in doctrines of men. You, on the other hand... seem to be fighting to keep your ear to Jesus. [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] does so too... but his steeping in "Reformed Theology" ... can make his expression of the simple gospel... a bit difficult for some to grasp. However, his brilliant mind is used by God to reach many... and in this... I see how the Body has different members. At least you, [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] come clean with it and express your "Reformed" leaning. This makes you honest blokes... to be frank... some don't do so and try to blend the "doctrine" with the "Bible" and the "Teaching of Jesus"... and it is those... that I primarily see much ill from.

My point? :idunno: ... When one uses the word "FreeWill"... it needs no exposition or "redefinition"... as God clearly loves us enough to allow us to "Choose" ye each day... "W(w)ho we will serve. Society that is void of freewill is best seen in places like Nazi Germany... and Islamic Regime states. It is clear "who" brings "oppression" and desires a "witless" humanity.

When Jesus gave His will to the Father... He was showing His Divinity and ability to be ONE in MIND with "HimSelf"... God. The Father and Son are "Indeed" ONE... but... there is the "Father" and "The Son"... and "The Son" sent the "Holy Spirit"... but "So did the Father"... and in all of this... we see that the full understanding of God... is will forever be "God's Alone".

Anyhow... I appreciate your willingness to open up here and express the things that are deeply meaningful to you... "in Christ".

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Are you attempting to derail your own thread?

If you have questions about what I've stated elsewhere please deal with them elsewhere.

I know pops used the term power or powerful and it's easier for me to pass by his stupid remarks than deal with them and I would not have used the term wise in regard to Satan.

Well... No... the post right before this one says that I've decided to open the thread up as discussion that goes far deeper than "Just a Poll". So... though you slip into a self appointed "Prophetship" stance more than not and tend to "Condemn"... while claiming to be "Judging"... I still value your input.

Keep in mind... I'm going over the thread and my tone may change... your participation is always welcome... but my demeanor towards you might just "change".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Just as you have misrepresented Evil.Eye, to yourself.

Thank God, for Romans 5:8

Thank you, Danoh.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

King James Bible
A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Zechariah 11:7
So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.

:cheers:

:cheers:

Spoiler

:e4e: