Everyone Will Die For His Own Sin
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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marhig
Well-known member
That death is death to self, once we hear the word and believe, and once God blesses us with his Holy Spirit, we are then born of God, and we should be dead to our old life (dead to self) we die to our old life once. We are a living sacrifice. Our old life gone, and we then live by the will of God and we are then judged on what we do good and bad.
Those who sin in ignorance are forgiven, but those who are born of God are to turn from sin, obey God, as live by his will and we will suffer if we continually wifully sin and we risk going back to being spiritually dead.
It's better to suffer for doing good than bad.
marhig
Well-known member
Daqq that's a great post, that's exactly how I see it too! I wrote my post before I saw this. But yours explains everything in depth. Thanks
marhig
Well-known member
Baring our sins doesn't mean to save us by dying on a cross.
We are saved by the grace of God through faith.
If people sin against us, we bare it and suffer it, and have a forgiving heart. Following Jesus. Jesus bore our sins and showed us a new and living way, a way of love, mercy and forgiveness. Christ Jesus suffered and through suffering, he was obedient to God, to death, EVEN the death on the cross. And we are brought back to God through him, through his ministry of reconciliation, by believing in him, believing in the word of God. We are saved through faith, by the grace of God.
We also have to partake in the sufferings of Christ, become a living sacrifice, and die to self, ( die to our old lives in the world) and bare witness to the truth. But Christ through the Spirit, will strengthen us to overcome if we keep our faith and live by the will of God and remain in his goodness.
Daqq that's a great post, that's exactly how I see it too! I wrote my post before I saw this. But yours explains everything in depth. Thanks
And Paul teaches the same as the Master:
Matthew 5:27-30
27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you that every one who looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if your right eye entices you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should be apollumi-destroyed, and not that your whole body be cast into Gehenna.
30 And if your right hand entices you to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should be apollumi-destroyed, and not that your whole body go into Gehenna.
Therefore Paul says, "Mortify your members which are upon the earth", (your land), Col 3:5 KJV.
And likewise, "Mortify the deeds of the body", Rom 8:13 KJV.
Paul is clearly expounding the Parables of Messiah in those places:
Romans 8:12-14 KJV
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, [but] not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Therefore what is "the Spirit" in this context within which Paul speaks?
The Spirit is the New Covenant Spirit-Testimony of Messiah found in the Gospel accounts.
marhig
Well-known member
John 6:63
And Paul teaches the same as the Master:
Matthew 5:27-30
27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you that every one who looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if your right eye entices you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should be apollumi-destroyed, and not that your whole body be cast into Gehenna.
30 And if your right hand entices you to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should be apollumi-destroyed, and not that your whole body go into Gehenna.
Therefore Paul says, "Mortify your members which are upon the earth", (your land), Col 3:5 KJV.
And likewise, "Mortify the deeds of the body", Rom 8:13 KJV.
Paul is clearly expounding the Parables of Messiah in those places:
Romans 8:12-14 KJV
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, [but] not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Therefore what is "the Spirit" in this context within which Paul speaks?
The Spirit is the Testimony of Messiah found in the Gospel accounts.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Amen! You got it from the Master.
The Testimony of Messiah is the Bread of Life, the Living Water, and the blood of our covenant; and these three Testify because they are one, and that one is the Testimony of Messiah: one Testimony, the only Testimony approved and sealed from the Father above because that same Testimony was given to the Master from the Father above and was not his own, and yet, the Master paid for that Testimony with his own blood. The same Testimony of the Master is also the Spirit of Grace, (Heb 10:29), and anyone not having and holding the full Testimony of Messiah in uprightness and in truth neither has his blood of atonement because his Testimony is the blood of our covenant. Each and every one of his disciples and followers are therefore commanded to take up their own stake to follow him by way of doing his Testimony and teachings. In so doing we do APPLY his blood to ourselves, as has been said in two other of your recent threads now, and in applying that Testimony-Blood we do apply it to the symbolic side-posts and the headers or lintels of our own house-body-temples, (as commanded in Exodus 12). This can only be true by APPLYING his holy Testimony to ourselves, both inside, (drinking of that one Spirit), and outside, (hands, deeds, actions, outer house-body-temple), and thus we apply the Testimony-Blood of Messiah to our hearts, minds, thoughts, actions, deeds, lives, and our entire walk with the Master to the glory of his Father who is also our heavenly Father. This too is how we "wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb", (for the conscience is likened to a garment). And all of this is why in the Seder or Last Supper he speaks of the blood already being poured out; for it has already been poured out through his TESTIMONY and was continuing to be poured out as he spoke his continuing Testimony right there in the passages which record the statements he made concerning the Bread of Life and the two Cups of the Covenants which are mentioned therein. When he speaks of himself being the Bread of Life in the John passage quoted below it is past-tense, present tense, and future tense, and therefore not something physical he is going to provide at some later date with his literal flesh at Golgotha, (which is tantamount to theoretical cannibalism), and that is because it concerns his Testimony, which is Spirit, (as Marhig just quoted), and therefore his Testimony is the spiritual and supernal FOOD of Elohim sent down from the heavens to deliver us.
John 6:48-64 ASV
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble?
62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
According to the last statement quoted above anyone who refuses to walk by the Spirit of the Testimony of Messiah, and yet claims to know, love, and follow his commandments and sayings according to the flesh; the same is nothing more than a carnal minded Judas betrayer seeking nothing more than a physical kingdom of physical and carnal things; and the same who walks according to the flesh will die by the flesh as even Paul warns in a previous passage already quoted in a previous post. Moreover John 6:58 in the above speaks in the past tense while speaking of the manna from the heavens in the Torah but not the literal physical manna found on the floor of the desert and eaten as literal physical food by those who died in the desert; no, but rather the supernal and spiritual manna which represents EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of Elohim, (Dt 8:3 KJV, Mt 4:4 KJV, Rev 2:17 KJV), and therefore the holy Testimony of Messiah is the Manna and spiritual food from the heavens; and that Testimony is SPIRIT, even the Spirit of Grace, (again, Heb 10:29), and therefore the same holy Testimony of Messiah is the blood of our atonement and blood of our new-renewed covenant: the same "new Spirit" which was foretold in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, and 36:26.
Matthew 26:26-28 ASV
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took a cup, [Cup #1] and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Mark 14:22-24 ASV
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.
23 And he took a cup, [Cup #1] and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:14-20 ASV
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 for I say unto you, I shall not eat it, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he received a cup, [Cup #1] and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 And the cup in like manner after supper, [Cup #2] saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.
Daqq,
Can you confess --
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
I doubt that you believe this at all.
LA
Can you confess --
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
I doubt that you believe this at all.
LA
These are the only kinds of answers you are going to get from me because you are a hatemonger, a false accuser bearing false witness, and now running around like a tale-bearer trying to weave spells: and no doubt Elohim will eventually use your own hate against you to drive you into outer darkness where you belong. You do not deserve to know whether or not I believe the scripture you quote because you should have already believed me when I told you that I believe everything written in the scripture. As for casting pearls; I have a commandment, dear trampler.
marhig
Well-known member
Yes, and Jesus also lived by his testimony, he didn't just preach it like many false prophets do, he also lived it out, and brought us a new and living way.
And when we believe in him, we are to turn from sin and live by the will of God as he did. Deny ourselves, bare our cross and truly follow Jesus. Shed our blood and strive against sin as he did. He shed his blood and died daily to his own will to do the will of God, he was a living sacrifice. And those born of God, who have his life made manifest within their hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, are covered by his blood, they have his life and word in and through them, they are covered in him, and the love of God is seen through them and our flesh should be dying and we should be dead to our old life of sin, and God then sees the life of his son in us. And those who live by the will of God, will be striving against sin and will do so through faith, then God will strengthen us and help us to overcome, just as he did when Jesus prayed on the garden before he went on the cross, God sent an angel to strengthen him. And he will help all those who belong to him and through Christ strengthen them, to overcome the world as Jesus Christ did.
It wasn't the death of Jesus on the cross that saves us, it's being reconciled to God through him by the power of the spirit, and by his ministry of reconciliation, by the word of truth. As you say, his words are Spirit and they are life. He didn't need to die on a cross to save anyone, he was saving before he died on the cross. He saved all those who truly believed in him and in his word and who lived by it. And he is still saving through his people today, through those who bare witness to, and teach the truth.
He is saving those who believe in the truth of the word of God, through faith by the grace of God, and not by his death on the cross.
Life saves not death, death brings distruction and desolation, whilst life brings forth life and salvation!
It's Jesus' words (the word of God) that are Spirit and are life, they bring life not his death on the cross!
Amen, what his death did was to seal for all time the Testimony which he had already offered up daily as a living sacrifice wholly unto the Father. His Testimony represents his blood because it was his Testimony that they killed him for: he paid for that holy Testimony with his own blood even though it was not even his own Testimony, but given to him from the heavens, as John 3:27-29 teaches. That is why there is no other acceptable Testimony by which we may approach the Father; it can only happen through the Testimony of His Son which so many of these people here openly reject to their own MAD destruction. That is also why the rulings and judgments of the Sages, Sanhedrin, Elders, Pharisees, and Scribes were overturned, (dogmas in handwritten ordinances, injunctions, and official court decrees of the Yhudim designed to "put a hedge" around the Torah), for they put to death a Prophet of Israel for the last time, an innocent Prophet, the Prophet, who was foretold through Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15-22 and confirmed to be that same by Peter in Acts 3:22-26.
@marhig
This is one of the most beautiful sections written in the scripture:
2 Samuel 23:13-17
13 And three of the thirty chief men went down, and came to David in the harvest time unto the cave of Adullam: and the troop of the Philistines pitched in the valley of Rephaim, [valley of the Giants].
14 And David was then in the stronghold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Beth-Lehem, [House of Bread].
15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me to drink of the water of the well of Beth-Lehem which is by the gate!
16 And the three mighty men broke through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Beth-Lehem that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto YHWH.
17 And he said, Far be it from me, O YHWH, that I should do this: is this not the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.
So we have herein the town of Beth-Lehem, which means "House of Bread", and thus we have in typology the Word, which is the Bread of Life. And what is within the House of Bread or Bread of Life which is the Word? There is a well of water, that is, Living Water, which is drawn from the well of Beth-Lehem, the House of Bread, or Bread of Life, which is the Word. The three mighties therefore break through the camp of the Philistines and draw Living Water from the Well of the Bread of Life, which is the Word, and they bring it back to David. But what does David say and do? He compares the Living Water, which was drawn from the well of the Bread of Life, to the blood of those three mighties who went in jeopardy of their lives to retrieve it. Their own upright actions and deeds, (and love for David, being "warrior friends" of the king), end up transforming the water into the symbolic equivalent to their own blood; and David not just pours it out but pours it out unto YHWH, and that makes it as if a symbolic blood offering unto the Father by way of the Living Water which was drawn from the well of the Bread of Life. The actions and deeds of the three mighties makes the water equivalent to their own blood because they risked their own lives to bring the king a cup of Living Water from the well of Beth-Lehem, the House of Bread, the Bread of Life, the Word, which is the Testimony. In this story we have nearly the whole account of true atonement: the Bread of Life, (the Word), the Living Water, (the Word), and the Blood, (Testimony because the water testifies to the deeds and actions of the three mighties). And the Testimony of Messiah is Spirit, and the Spirit testifies because not only is it the truth but because of the actions and deeds of the Master who walked according to his own teachings even to the death of the cross. Therefore the three testify: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are one because all three are the Testimony of Messiah in the symbolism.
This is one of the most beautiful sections written in the scripture:
2 Samuel 23:13-17
13 And three of the thirty chief men went down, and came to David in the harvest time unto the cave of Adullam: and the troop of the Philistines pitched in the valley of Rephaim, [valley of the Giants].
14 And David was then in the stronghold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Beth-Lehem, [House of Bread].
15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me to drink of the water of the well of Beth-Lehem which is by the gate!
16 And the three mighty men broke through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Beth-Lehem that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto YHWH.
17 And he said, Far be it from me, O YHWH, that I should do this: is this not the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.
So we have herein the town of Beth-Lehem, which means "House of Bread", and thus we have in typology the Word, which is the Bread of Life. And what is within the House of Bread or Bread of Life which is the Word? There is a well of water, that is, Living Water, which is drawn from the well of Beth-Lehem, the House of Bread, or Bread of Life, which is the Word. The three mighties therefore break through the camp of the Philistines and draw Living Water from the Well of the Bread of Life, which is the Word, and they bring it back to David. But what does David say and do? He compares the Living Water, which was drawn from the well of the Bread of Life, to the blood of those three mighties who went in jeopardy of their lives to retrieve it. Their own upright actions and deeds, (and love for David, being "warrior friends" of the king), end up transforming the water into the symbolic equivalent to their own blood; and David not just pours it out but pours it out unto YHWH, and that makes it as if a symbolic blood offering unto the Father by way of the Living Water which was drawn from the well of the Bread of Life. The actions and deeds of the three mighties makes the water equivalent to their own blood because they risked their own lives to bring the king a cup of Living Water from the well of Beth-Lehem, the House of Bread, the Bread of Life, the Word, which is the Testimony. In this story we have nearly the whole account of true atonement: the Bread of Life, (the Word), the Living Water, (the Word), and the Blood, (Testimony because the water testifies to the deeds and actions of the three mighties). And the Testimony of Messiah is Spirit, and the Spirit testifies because not only is it the truth but because of the actions and deeds of the Master who walked according to his own teachings even to the death of the cross. Therefore the three testify: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are one because all three are the Testimony of Messiah in the symbolism.
How is that death demonstrated?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord's testimony is NOT the "blood of our atonement."
You do your best to undermine the death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross. The only thing that you have respect for is your perversion of the Scriptures.
Anyone with the slightest bit of spiritual descernment knows that the word "blood" in this passage is NOT speaking of the Lord Jesus' testimony:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
The truth is not in you!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are as bad as daqq! You do your best to undermine the meaning of the Cross every chance that you can. Do you really think that anyone can be saved if the Lord Jesus did not die on the Cross?
Do you not know that no one can be justified in the eyes of the LORD apart from the Lord Jesus' death?:
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" (Ro.5:9).
You claim to be a Christian but the Lord Jesus speaks of you here:
"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" (Mt.15:8).
Your heart is a million miles away from Him.
That is the Christ or the Meshiah, the Memra, the Logos, the Word, and that is why it very clearly says "not redeemed with corruptible things" such as physical blood. Are you now saying that the Spirit Who the Anointed one spoke was not actually Spirit but rather physical? Do you also speak physical words? Do flesh and blood come out of your mouth when you talk? The Anointed one says his words are Spirit in John 6:63 and we know from Luke 4:18, quoting Isaiah 61:1, that the Spirit of Meshiah was that Spirit of the Father who rested upon the Anointed one whom you call Jesus. Why therefore do you neither believe the Anointed one nor the Meshiah Who spoke through him? The Anointed one also plainly tells you that he himself is not the Logos as has been shown to you many times. Why do you not believe his words in John 12:48 and John 14:24? Why do you not even believe what the passage you quoted actually says? It also says "as of a lamb" and not "a literal physical lamb". Why therefore do you interpret the Exodus Passover Lamb as a literal flesh and blood sacrifice when Paul clearly tells you it represents Messiah in typology? Do you not believe that Moses wrote of Messiah? Do you not believe the Torah prophesied as the Anointed one says in Matthew 11:13? Oh yeah, that's right, we have already been over all things things more times than can be counted now and you have rejected the Testimony of the Master every time. Unfortunately for you, without the Testimony of Messiah, you have no atonement but rather some dream theology which you concocted in your vain imagination to justify yourself in the machinations of your vain imagination.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When the word "blood" is used in the Scriptures in regard to the Lord Jesus it is used symbolically to refer to His deathmupon the Cross. Do you deny that His death upon the Cross served to reconcile man to the LORD?:
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight" (Col.1:21-22).
Are you willing to argue that the word "death" in that verse is actually referring to the testimony of the Lord Jesus?
So then, it is you who does not have the truth in you: and that is because you imagine yourself to be atoned and cleansed both inside and out by the physical corruptible blood of a man. But I understand the blood of my atonement to be the blood of Elohim, which is Spirit, even the Spirit of Grace according to the scripture as already quoted; and I drink from that Spirit every day. You however have no physical blood to drink, do you? And you have no flesh of Messiah to eat, do you? How then can you say you have atonement according to your carnal understanding? According to all the scripture that has already been posted, and especially the statements of the Master from John 6, you cannot have the Life of Messiah in you because you have never eaten his flesh nor drank his blood. Therefore, just as Paul says, you will die in your sins because you walk according to the flesh seeing all things according to the eyes and mind of the carnal and natural man. Meanwhile I have the Spirit-Testimony of Meshiah which is the blood of Elohim; yea, even the pure blood of the grape, for Meshiah is not only the Door, (of the Tabernacle), but also the Vine. I have the pure blood of the grape, a drink offering, (the Word), and the Bread of Life which is the Testimony-Word and the manna from the heavens, angel's food and "the flesh" of Meshiah, and I have the Living Water which is also the Word of the Father Who is the fountain of Living Waters. And what do you have to eat and drink? Nothing because you have your own life and lifestyle to maintain and you only see food and drink as physical in meaning. Food for the belly and the belly for food: go to now rich man, you will see to it! :chuckle:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Since you think that you have the truth in you why do you run and hide from the question I asked you about this verse?:
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight" (Col.1:21-22).
Are you willing to argue that the word "death" in that verse is actually referring to the testimony of the Lord Jesus?