England: smokers and the obese to be barred from receiving routine surgery

[rexlunae]

Well it's not a problem now, is it.

Why do you say that?

 

[gcthomas]

It has been federal law for a long time that no emergency room can deny service because someone who shows up can't pay. It's plainly stated on a big poster somewhere in every ER.

If you read your OP link, then you'd know that no one in the UK will be denied emergency room treatment. And for smokers and the obese the restriction is only on routine operations for non-life-threatening conditions, and only delays surgery, not preventing treatment.

And your OP only referred to decisions in one hospital trust, not the whole NHS, so your Single payer = single decider trope is really out of place here.

 

[Jonahdog]

If you read your OP link, then you'd know that no one in the UK will be denied emergency room treatment. And for smokers and the obese the restriction is only on routine operations for non-life-threatening conditions, and only delays surgery, not preventing treatment.

And your OP only referred to decisions in one hospital trust, not the whole NHS, so your Single payer = single decider trope is really out of place here.

Jeez, you don't expect the right wingers here to be honest, do you? After all they take their cues from the Head Liar at 1600 PA Avenue.

 

[musterion]

If you read your OP link, then you'd know that no one in the UK will be denied emergency room treatment.

I don't recall saying they would be.

And for smokers and the obese the restriction is only on routine operations for non-life-threatening conditions, and only delays surgery, not preventing treatment.

I do believe I clarified that.

And your OP only referred to decisions in one hospital trust, not the whole NHS, so your Single payer = single decider trope is really out of place here.

It is never out of place when dealing with socialized medicine.

 

[musterion]

Why do you say that?

Obamacare.

You aren't questioning Obama's care for the sick, are you?

 

[gcthomas]

I do believe I clarified that.

The word 'barred' that you used says otherwise.

It is never out of place when dealing with socialized medicine.

Can't be Single payer = single decider when the tax money is taken centrally and the hospital trusts make most of their own decisions, including the one you have drawn attention to.

And none of this affects anyone outside of this trust's area or those with their own health insurance.

 

[ClimateSanity]

All that that means is that someone showing up at an emergency room must be stabilized. It provides no guarantee that they will receive even necessary treatment beyond that. You come in with treatable cancer, and no imminent threat to your life, and you can and will be discharged after an evaluation. Some hospitals may choose not to do that, but there is no legal protection against it.

https://law.freeadvice.com/malpractice_law/hospital_malpractice/hospital-patients.htm

They put you on Medicaid if you cannot make some payment arrangements as far as cancer goes.

 

[ClimateSanity]

The word 'barred' that you used says otherwise.


Can't be Single payer = single decider when the tax money is taken centrally and the hospital trusts make most of their own decisions, including the one you have drawn attention to.

And none of this affects anyone outside of this trust's area or those with their own health insurance.

How many possible deciders are there in a free market system? How many possible deciders are there in single payer?

 

[ClimateSanity]

The word 'barred' that you used says otherwise.


Can't be Single payer = single decider when the tax money is taken centrally and the hospital trusts make most of their own decisions, including the one you have drawn attention to.

And none of this affects anyone outside of this trust's area or those with their own health insurance.

Why should you be forced to pay twice for health insurance in order to get care that single payer may not allow?

 

[jeffblue101]

ah, and the for-profit US health insurance carries never use cost/benefit ratios in their decision making? So it is ok for your profit making insurance company to decide?
Just checking/

Better than letting clueless and unaccountable politicians decide. Just look how government officials submitted a fraudulent application just so that they can get subsidies for their health insurance without a need to pass a bill.

 

[gcthomas]

Why should you be forced to pay twice for health insurance in order to get care that single payer may not allow?

To get treatment that is more convenient to me. Duh. (And I'm not forced to have the private insurance)

I pay taxes that pay for lots of thing I will not use. I don't fly, but tax money goes towards air traffic control systems. I don't have children in primary school, but I am happy for others to benefit. I have private health insurance, but I don't begrudge those who have to rely on the NHS, and I still routinely use the NHS when that is most convenient.

Q. Why would you object to a safety-net healthcare system that you can afford not to have to use right now? (although you might need it later in life)

 

[ClimateSanity]

Treatment that is more convenient for you? I have never thought of needed medical care as being convenient. Duh

 

[ClimateSanity]

To get treatment that is more convenient to me. Duh. (And I'm not forced to have the private insurance)

I pay taxes that pay for lots of thing I will not use. I don't fly, but tax money goes towards air traffic control systems. I don't have children in primary school, but I am happy for others to benefit. I have private health insurance, but I don't begrudge those who have to rely on the NHS, and I still routinely use the NHS when that is most convenient.

Q. Why would you object to a safety-net healthcare system that you can afford not to have to use right now? (although you might need it later in life)

I don't have to have single payer in order to have a safety net healthcare system.

 

[gcthomas]

Treatment that is more convenient for you? I have never thought of needed medical care as being convenient. Duh

Have you never used routine health care? (For ongoing reviews of treatments, for non-urgent but irritating complaints, etc.) The free NHS system doesn't do convenient appointment times, and waiting times for the appointment might be longer than you'd care for, or the treatment you'd prefer is not offered, or you want the treatment more locally done …

If I want to be seen and treated on the day or time I want, then I can get that on my insurance, but not the NHS. The NHS is optimised to be efficient, not convenient.

 

[gcthomas]

I don't have to have single payer in order to have a safety net healthcare system.

I don't use it as a simple single payer system. I use the NHS for urgent care and emergency admissions, and the (cheap) insurance for the convenience for the routine care or that which has a waiting list in the NHS. It works well, and is substantially cheaper than the insurance systems in the US.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Have you never used routine health care? (For ongoing reviews of treatments, for non-urgent but irritating complaints, etc.) The free NHS system doesn't do convenient appointment times, and waiting times for the appointment might be longer than you'd care for, or the treatment you'd prefer is not offered, or you want the treatment more locally done …

If I want to be seen and treated on the day or time I want, then I can get that on my insurance, but not the NHS. The NHS is optimised to be efficient, not convenient.

Needed medical care includes much more than routine treatment and it certainly cannot be classified as convenient.

 

[ClimateSanity]

I don't use it as a simple single payer system. I use the NHS for urgent care and emergency admissions, and the (cheap) insurance for the convenience for the routine care or that which has a waiting list in the NHS. It works well, and is substantially cheaper than the insurance systems in the US.

Substantially cheaper? How much are you paying in taxes? How much of that tax is due to your healthcare system?

 

[gcthomas]

Substantially cheaper? How much are you paying in taxes? How much of that tax is due to your healthcare system?

The latest figures I saw had the US paying 15% of GDP and the UK 8% of a much smaller GDP on healthcare. SO you are paying three times as much as us for health. Here the doctors pay is restrained, they don't need to charge more for their own liability insurance as they a are protected centrally, and the NHS can by a lot of medicines and machines for a fraction of the cost in the US because of the spending power they have.

Go figure. Not a perfect system, but damned efficient financially.

 

[musterion]

For all those tax dollars, there is still a long waiting list for a host of operations, both routine and urgent. Another Fraser Institute study recently revealed that 63,000 Canadians left the country in 2016 to seek medical assistance elsewhere — usually the U.S.


The think-tank compiled information from Statistics Canada and the Canadian Institute for Health Information to base its claim that the “average Canadian family with two parents and two children with a household income of $127,814 will pay $12,057 for public health-care insurance this year.”


Barua told The Daily Caller that Canada is in a health care crisis. “Services are being rationed. In our last report on wait times in Canada, we discovered that the average wait time from referral to treatment was 20 weeks. That was the longest wait time in the history of our survey,” he said.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/03/meanwhile-canadas-free-health-care-system-is-also-exploding/

 

[musterion]

The latest figures I saw had the US paying 15% of GDP and the UK 8% of a much smaller GDP on healthcare. SO you are paying three times as much as us for health.

Assuming those figures are true, we're still better off with our system, thanks.