Eliminating Dispensationalism

[Jacob]

Let's keep this simple.


The righteous requirement of the law IS FULFILLED IN US....it is not fulfilled BY us.


Do you understand the difference between our doing something and something being done for us?

Shalom.

You have this perspective as well. It says, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. There are different ways of interpreting the words that you are sharing, yes. When it says that it is fulfilled in us, and that you do not walk according to the flesh, are you saying that walking according to the Spirit does not involve the commandments or that the Spirit of God does not cause anyone to transgress any commandments?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

I like warm beer, but I don't yet find the thought of warm flat beer appealing, perhaps I will though in the future.

Shalom.

I not only do not have a taste for beer, I do not drink beer. I do not know why he asked.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Shalom.

Really? What did your Red Cross card say at the top?

I do not know. I have retired from Lifeguarding. I was a Water Safety Instructor.

That's odd since you claimed you thought condemnation was not a part of the Law.

It is not. You are to love your neighbor as yourself. Talk with your husband about it if you are married. If there is a Judge, or you want me to be a Judge, about what? If you have sinned, you are condemned by the Law or the Law condemns you. But it is God who condemns you, not others who wish for your demise contrary to the Law, or those who jeer at you. Unless you are in Christ, then you are not condemned. But do not choose to break the Law. That is not good. It is sin. The one who is born of God does not sin. Are you born of God? Do you sin?

None that I think you can answer.

That is an appropriate thing for you to say. I commend you for this response.

No, I'm merely pointing out the things that you clearly don't know...hoping to help you understand the difference between the law and grace, and what it means to obey the GOSPEL.

God's grace is expressed in the gospel. But the gospel is not devoid of God's commands.

This is not a church or a congregation. This is an open forum and I am in Christ....there is no Jew or Greek, male or female IN HIM.

I am a Jew and a male and I am in Christ.

If you are a believer, then you are a babe in need of instruction. Badly in need of instruction.

I do not know why you say this.

I don't believe you're anywhere near being saved, and you won't be if you remain on this path of being a pretend Jew. You are in the flesh....not even your own flesh at that.

You are incorrect.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

You have this perspective as well. It says, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. There are different ways of interpreting the words that you are sharing, yes.

It's quite simple. The basis is this....

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

When it says that it is fulfilled in us, and that you do not walk according to the flesh, are you saying that walking according to the Spirit does not involve the commandments or that the Spirit of God does not cause anyone to transgress any commandments?

I don't say it....Paul says it.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

The liberty we have in Christ Jesus is directly related to our being delivered from that "yoke of bondage" that is the law. As Paul tells us in Gal., the law's purpose is to show men their GUILT and to lead them to faith in Christ. It cannot, and was never meant to be, whatever it is you imagine. Do you have a clue what Paul means in these verses below?

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.​

 

[Interplanner]

Shalom.I do not know. I have retired from Lifeguarding. I was a Water Safety Instructor.It is not. You are to love your neighbor as yourself. Talk with your husband about it if you are married. If there is a Judge, or you want me to be a Judge, about what? If you have sinned, you are condemned by the Law or the Law condemns you. But it is God who condemns you, not others who wish for your demise contrary to the Law, or those who jeer at you. Unless you are in Christ, then you are not condemned. But do not choose to break the Law. That is not good. It is sin. The one who is born of God does not sin. Are you born of God? Do you sin?
That is an appropriate thing for you to say. I commend you for this response.God's grace is expressed in the gospel. But the gospel is not devoid of God's commands.
I am a Jew and a male and I am in Christ.

I do not know why you say this.

You are incorrect.

Shalom.

Jacob

Don't forget, the condemnation of the Law was in how it was practiced in the IT period (between the testaments). It sounds like they are talking about the original, but they actually mean the layer of practice in the IT period which resulted in the Judaism in which Paul was raised.

 

[Jacob]

It's quite simple. The basis is this....

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

What is the law for righteousness?
What is the LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS?
What is the Law for righteousness?

Is the Law of Moses being referred to here, or a law of righteousness, a law for righteousness?

Is it FOR righteousness?

In any case, Christ fulfilled the Law and we should obey God in Jesus Christ. He says that the Law and the Prophets are not in Him abolished, or that He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, or that the Law and the Prophets are not abolished period. Abolished and fulfilled are different. The Law is not abolished.

I don't say it....Paul says it.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Do you know what it means to be under the Law? Is it to be under condemnation? Jesus was under the Law but it wasn't a problem for Him. He was sinless. It has to do with what under the Law means. Christ redeemed those under the Law. He didn't abolish the Law.

The liberty we have in Christ Jesus is directly related to our being delivered from that "yoke of bondage" that is the law. As Paul tells us in Gal., the law's purpose is to show men their GUILT and to lead them to faith in Christ. It cannot, and was never meant to be, whatever it is you imagine. Do you have a clue what Paul means in these verses below?

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.​

Paul here explained the effect of the Law upon him before he was born again. That is how I understand it.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Don't forget, the condemnation of the Law was in how it was practiced in the IT period (between the testaments).

Shalom.

I do not know the effect of the Inter Testamental upon what we are talking about, but I do not hold to an Old Testament / New Testament paradigm relating to scripture. That is, there is a new covenant in Yeshua HaMashiach which is God's law and it is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. But scripture is not the New Testament, and neither is it the Old Testament. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai. The question is if it is this law that was written on minds and hearts in the new covenant.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

You are to love your neighbor as yourself.

And that is a command that cannot be accomplished except by the Spirit within.
Are you claiming to do that through your own effort?

Talk with your husband about it if you are married.

I don't need to talk to anyone. I know what the Bible says, and I'm repeating that to you. You're the one who seems to need answers. You're the one who keeps saying, "I don't know".

If there is a Judge, or you want me to be a Judge, about what?

:think:

If you have sinned, you are condemned by the Law or the Law condemns you. But it is God who condemns you, not others who wish for your demise contrary to the Law, or those who jeer at you. Unless you are in Christ, then you are not condemned.

How do you figure you're IN CHRIST?

But do not choose to break the Law. That is not good. It is sin.

You said sin is transgression of the Law, and Paul tells me I'm not under the law. How can a person break a law they are not under?

The one who is born of God does not sin. Are you born of God? Do you sin?

I don't sin...not because I keep the law, but because I've been delivered from the Law.

God's grace is expressed in the gospel. But the gospel is not devoid of God's commands.

Show me where God's commands are in the Gospel. :chew:

I am a Jew and a male and I am in Christ.

Oh... Perhaps your claim to be IN CHRIST is as real as your claim to be a JEW. Unfortunately, your claims don't seem to be backed up with knowledge of how to be either.

 

[Jacob]

Shalom.

And that is a command that cannot be accomplished except by the Spirit within.
Are you claiming to do that through your own effort?

Not at all. Except that we need to decide, make the decision, to obey God. It is a choice. I do not depend upon the Holy Spirit to obey for me. There is the Holy Spirit,
and there is my obedience. Hopefully it is the Holy Spirit that guides or leads me, more than just helping me. I do not want this to be about me. It is about God. Still, part of life is the obedience factor, which is when we obey God is glorified. Someone may see your obedience and glorify God, so long as they do not think that you are doing something for your own glory.

I don't need to talk to anyone. I know what the Bible says, and I'm repeating that to you. You're the one who seems to need answers. You're the one who keeps saying, "I don't know".

There are things that I do not know. But I am not trying to lead on with "I don't know".

:think:
How do you figure you're IN CHRIST?

I do not understand your question. I have been in Christ since the time I was born again. I lived most of my life as a Christian. But I am a Jew following Judaism. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

You said sin is transgression of the Law, and Paul tells me I'm not under the law. How can a person break a law they are not under?

Jesus was born under the Law to redeem those under the Law. He observed and taught the Law. He taught others to do the same. To be under the law as you say it is to be under condemnation, not to observe the Law. Observing the law is not the same as what is said by many of what it means to be under the law.

I don't sin...not because I keep the law, but because I've been delivered from the Law.

Interesting view. Interesting perspective. I do not know why you have it. If you have been delivered from the law does that mean that you do not need to keep it or that you can break the law? If you choose to sin isn't that a transgression of the law? If you do not sin, are you not obeying the Law? For, sin is transgression of the law.

Show me where God's commands are in the Gospel. :chew:

Are you asking about the facts about God and Jesus and salvation or are you asking if Jesus being Lord means obedience for you?

Oh... Perhaps your claim to be IN CHRIST is as real as your claim to be a JEW. Unfortunately, your claims don't seem to be backed up with knowledge of how to be either.

I read the Bible as a child. I have read it a couple of times in my life.

I currently read, study, and observe Torah. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation. The part about being in Christ is in Matthew through Revelation, but an understanding of the TaNaKh or what Christians call the Old Testament (which is not the Old Testament or the Old Covenant) helps.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Interplanner]

Shalom.

I do not know the effect of the Inter Testamental upon what we are talking about, but I do not hold to an Old Testament / New Testament paradigm relating to scripture. That is, there is a new covenant in Yeshua HaMashiach which is God's law and it is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. But scripture is not the New Testament, and neither is it the Old Testament. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai. The question is if it is this law that was written on minds and hearts in the new covenant.

Shalom.

Jacob

The zealots who arose due to the issues of the IT period (Judas the Galilean starts a revolt in 6 AD--Luke 5:37, cited by Rabbi Gamaliel) expected everything about the 'kingdom of God' or 'new covenant' to happen in the plain sense of the same torah, the same people group, the same land, the same agreement but energized. That was not what Christ meant, and all this is a divide between the two streams that must be managed, but cannot be denied. God makes His Servant a covenant for all nations, and the mission of declaring the good news to all nations supercedes.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Shalom.

I think that you are confused about me. I am a Jew, not a Christian. I am not Messianic, I am Orthodox. I do not mix meat and dairy. I am an ex-Christian Dispensationalist. I used to be a Gentile. I am a Jew, Jewish, of Israel, as a proselyte and a convert. I do not follow Covenentalism and I am not interested.

Shalom.

Jacob

Jesus = Yeshua = Christ = Messiah

You need to understand what you claim more clearly. All Judaism (as in Orthodox Judaism) rejects Jesus Christ (Yeshua me Natzret) as the Messiah. Yeshua, salvation, is the Jewish Messiah from Nazareth in Israel, the one prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

“And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). (You apparently accept the NT.)

AMR

 

[Jacob]

The zealots who arose due to the issues of the IT period (Judas the Galilean starts a revolt in 6 AD--Luke 5:37, cited by Rabbi Gamaliel) expected everything about the 'kingdom of God' or 'new covenant' to happen in the plain sense of the same torah, the same people group, the same land, the same agreement but energized. That was not what Christ meant, and all this is a divide between the two streams that must be managed, but cannot be denied. God makes His Servant a covenant for all nations, and the mission of declaring the good news to all nations supercedes.

Shalom.

I do not know how to verify what you are saying, but thank you for your contribution.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Jesus = Yeshua = Christ = Messiah

You need to understand what you claim more clearly. All Judaism (as in Orthodox Judaism) rejects Jesus Christ (Yeshua me Natzret) as the Messiah. Yeshua, salvation, is the Jewish Messiah from Nazareth in Israel, the one prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

“And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). (You apparently accept the NT.)

AMR

Shalom.

You are incorrect. Sorry. It is in Judaism that we have the expectation of the coming of the Messiah, and that this was fulfilled in Yeshua Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

Shalom.

I want to go with scripture rather than what you say. You are welcome to change, read scripture, do research, and continue conversing with me if you want to.
Shalom. Jacob

Well, the title of your post is "eliminating dispensationalism" and when confronted with a Dispensation, right there in your Bible, you turn away from further discussion.
I'd conclude that you are being brainwashed in some sort of pseudo-Jew cult.

οἰκονομία oikonomía I.the management of a household or of household affairs, in this case, God's "household". 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25

 

[beameup]

LOL....and people wonder why I make fun of Dispensationalism.

You are the butt of the joke. :rotfl:
1/2 of the world's Jewry have moved to Israel
and that is accelerating. You obviously have
your head-in-the-sand concerning current events.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus = Yeshua = Christ = Messiah

You need to understand what you claim more clearly. All Judaism (as in Orthodox Judaism) rejects Jesus Christ (Yeshua me Natzret) as the Messiah. Yeshua, salvation, is the Jewish Messiah from Nazareth in Israel, the one prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

“And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). (You apparently accept the NT.)

AMR

:e4e:

 

[Clete]

Shalom.

Maybe you can see that an examination of my beliefs is different from an examination of dispensationalism.

Shalom.

Jacob

What I can see is what you wrote in the opening post of your thread.

"I am a Jew, of Israel, Jewish, as a proselyte and a convert."
"I used to be a Christian Dispensationalist."
"There are some things or views of premillenial dispensationalism that I did not find in scripture, that are still a part of my mind. They need to be cleared up."
"I was pretribulation rapture, by what I was taught."
"I do not accept a seven year tribulation preceding a millennium."

Looks a whole lot like you were talking about your beliefs and your desire to purge your broken mind of a particular doctrine.

I'm here to tell you that this isn't how truth is found. It isn't how ANY truth is found or established. Try this sort of thought process within any other sort of intellectual pursuit and you'll be laughed out of the room and rightly so. Intellectually and biblically, you're on no firmer ground than David Koresh was. Any doctrines you hold that are more correct than his are so by mere hapenstance and blind luck. You're a doctinal cherry picker. Live with it.

Clete

 

[Interplanner]

Well, the title of your post is "eliminating dispensationalism" and when confronted with a Dispensation, right there in your Bible, you turn away from further discussion.
I'd conclude that you are being brainwashed in some sort of pseudo-Jew cult.

οἰκονομία oikonomía I.the management of a household or of household affairs, in this case, God's "household". 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25

that's right about the management of the house and it is not going back under Judaism.

 

[beameup]

that's right about the management of the house and it is not going back under Judaism.

Whatever you want to call it, "it" is explained in Ezekiel ch. 40-48 (and elsewhere).
However, "it" is for the Israelites, who are genetic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.
"It" will be established in Israel, and the "light" from there will shine upon the Gentile Nations.
Read your O.T., it's all in there, and it's LITERAL.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the Nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. - Zechariah 14:16

 

[Right Divider]

that's right about the management of the house and it is not going back under Judaism.

What is "Judaism"?