Does God know the future?

[godrulz]

Apparently, Special Relativity does not have to conflict with Newtonian absolute time. I think some are going beyond Einstein's intent, or that Einstein had not fully worked through his theories.

 

[Clete]

Apparently, Special Relativity does not have to conflict with Newtonian absolute time.

As a matter of fact no true theory could. If anything in science has been confirmed and reconfirmed it is the validity of Newtonian physics and the laws of thermodynamics. It is my firm conviction that when the real truth about physics is discovered, no one will hardly be able to believe the simplicity and eloquence that is displayed in its ability to unify both the micro and macro systems in nature.

 

[gracenotworks]

The future??

The future??

I've heard lots of different views on this subject, and I'd love to hear yours!
Here are some starting questions:

Does God know the future? Yes and no! Before I explain, lets define several key thruths that have bearing on the answer. (1) Time is a byproduct of mass and acceleration/velocity. If any of these attributes change, time itself changes. We understand time because that is one of the 3.5 dimensions that we live in. The half dimension is time because we can move forward and look back, but we can't move back or look forward. (2) God is spirit and exists in eternity. Now for the answer. God knows the future but not in the way we might think. He knows it because he has no perspective of time as He exists outside of time. What will happen has already happened in the mind of God. This is really the basis of Calvinism. If we are to make the claim that man has free will then we put God in our 3.5 dimensions and therefore rob Him of his eternal existance and take away some portion of His sovereignty.

Vastly interesting stuff!

If He does, how FAR into the future?

There's plenty more, but those are some starters

 

[jjjg]

Clete and Godrulz, your supporting of newton over Einstein is laughgable and just goes to show you have no idea what physics is all about.

 

[Clete]

Clete and Godrulz, your supporting of newton over Einstein is laughgable and just goes to show you have no idea what physics is all about.

I have not nor do I support Newton over Einstein.

And what's truly laughable is you, of all the people on the planet, telling me that I'm laughable! :chuckle:

 

[bling]

I am new to this.
I believe in wormholes that can allow travel in time and time is warped so you could move back and forth in time. This can be shown mathematically and seems very logical to me especially since it has been shown experimentally that time is not constant (they accelerated particles that decay and found the lost some decay time). The energy to create a wormhole is immense, but some day we might create a small one to look through. Is it not then logical if there is an all powerful God, He could create all the wormholes He wanted and travel out side of the restraint of time.
Now I do not see how God knowing the future means man does not have free will. God would know, but that does not mean He would change anything He did to alter the future because what He did was the best that could be done, with or without knowledge of the future. My actions are still my actions since I do not know the future.
How does God knowing the future, eliminate man’s free will?
There are lots of scripture that try to describe God in human terms or at least describe God in human understandable words for the time, so if God were outside of time how would that be described to a first century Jew?
God may even chosen to know all the workings of each persons mind, but some how He programmed enough randomness, to allow man free will. Or He knows the out come but does not choose to know, how it happened in our minds. Some would say If He is limited then He is not all powerful, but that has more to do with their definition of omnipotent. Omnipotent may mean the ability to control all powers including your own, thus allowing you to limit your own power. I have not read all the treads so maybe you have addressed this.

 

[Clete]

I am new to this.

Welcome to TOL! :up:

I believe in wormholes that can allow travel in time and time is warped so you could move back and forth in time. This can be shown mathematically and seems very logical to me especially since it has been shown experimentally that time is not constant (they accelerated particles that decay and found the lost some decay time). The energy to create a wormhole is immense, but some day we might create a small one to look through.

So far as I am aware, wormholes are still completely theoretical and even if they aren't no backward time travel has ever been observed at all, ever. Also regardless of how time is "dilated" for a subatomic particle the fact remains that the particle never left the observers present and thus did not time travel.

Is it not then logical if there is an all powerful God, He could create all the wormholes He wanted and travel out side of the restraint of time.

God can do anything that is doable. Traveling through time is not doable and thus God cannot do it. Time does not exist to travel through. It is not something that can be existed inside or outside of, it is simply sequence and/or duration.

Now I do not see how God knowing the future means man does not have free will. God would know, but that does not mean He would change anything He did to alter the future because what He did was the best that could be done, with or without knowledge of the future. My actions are still my actions since I do not know the future.
How does God knowing the future, eliminate man’s free will?

It eliminates your free will by eliminating a necessary condition of free will, that condition being an ability to do otherwise.

There are lots of scripture that try to describe God in human terms or at least describe God in human understandable words for the time, so if God were outside of time how would that be described to a first century Jew?

How about like this...
"God exists outside of time."

God may even chosen to know all the workings of each persons mind, but some how He programmed enough randomness, to allow man free will. Or He knows the out come but does not choose to know, how it happened in our minds. Some would say If He is limited then He is not all powerful, but that has more to do with their definition of omnipotent. Omnipotent may mean the ability to control all powers including your own, thus allowing you to limit your own power. I have not read all the treads so maybe you have addressed this.

I recommend that you simply read the Battle Royale X. Bob has gone over all of the Omni attributes of God in some detail.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

God can do anything that is doable. Traveling through time is not doable and thus God cannot do it.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Is raising oneself from the dead doable? Is creating everything out of nothing doable? Is knowing every person's thought in the world, and hearing every person's prayer in the world doable? Is God becoming a man doable? Is God being Three-Persons-In-One doable?

Please Clete. Don't limit God to be a mere human. He's God for crying out loud! Nothing is impossible for Him; that includes living outside the constraints of time.

 

[Clete]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Then refute it, if you can.

Is raising oneself from the dead doable?

Yes.

Is creating everything out of nothing doable?

Yes.

Is knowing every person's thought in the world, and hearing every person's prayer in the world doable?

Yes and yes.

Is God becoming a man doable?
Yes.

Is God being Three-Persons-In-One doable?

If you mean three person in one God then yes.

Please Clete. Don't limit God to be a mere human. He's God for crying out loud! Nothing is impossible for Him; that includes living outside the constraints of time.

I never said that God cannot do the supernatural or miraculous and I do not mean simply that he can't do things that I or any other man cannot do. When I say that God cannot do the undoable, I mean that he cannot do that which is self contradictory; He cannot do that which is logically absurd.

The logically absurd is undoable because to do it would be to not do it. For example, God cannot be in or outside of something that doesn't exist. God cannot be in a place that does not exist. God cannot make round triangles, or cubes with less than twelve edges, or perfect spheres with sharp corners. So I say again, with confidence that God cannot do the undoable.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

When I say that God cannot do the undoable, I mean that he cannot do that which is self contradictory; He cannot do that which is logically absurd.

Then please explain to all of us here how God can create everything from nothing, logically. Logically speaking, how can God be three-persons-in-one? Explain to us the logic behind God raising Himself from the dead. Please explain to us how the miracles God always does, and who He is, in a logical way.

Your belief that God has to exist in your 'logical-box' is unnerving...

 

[Clete]

Then please explain to all of us here how God can create everything from nothing, logically.

It is perfectly logical for a supernatural being to do the supernatural. As a matter of fact, the creation of the physical universe is the only logical explanation for its existence.

Logically speaking, how can God be three-persons-in-one?

God is three-persons, not three persons in one person. There is no logical problem even inferred with the Trinity. A lack of detailed information perhaps but there is no logical contradiction. There is one God that has some plurality with it Him which is indicated Biblically right from the very beginning.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God ('elohiym) created (singular verb) the heaven and the earth.

'elohiym is the plural or God and yet Moses used the singular verb created. So translated literally it would be, " In the beginning Gods, He created the heavens and the earth.

This indicated either that Moses couldn't right a simple sentence to open the Bible with or that there is plurality in God. It does not however indicate a logical contradiction.

Explain to us the logic behind God raising Himself from the dead.

Umm, let's see. God has the power over physical life and death. Doesn't seem like a logical contradiction to me.

Please explain to us how the miracles God always does, and who He is, in a logical way.

This question makes no sense.
Of course God can do miracles but there is no logical contradiction in a supernatural being doing supernatural things.

Your belief that God has to exist in your 'logical-box' is unnerving...

Do you even know what the word contradiction means? This line of questioning makes no sense Z Man. Are you seriously suggesting that the Christian faith is irrational? If so, you are I are truly finished with one another. There is no point in attempting to have a rational conversation with a person who rejects rationality.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Of course God can do miracles but there is no logical contradiction in a supernatural being doing supernatural things.

Why does this NOT include existing outside time?

If you believe God can create everything out of nothing, that which didn't exist suddenly made to exist, then why do you reject the idea that God cannot exist outside of time because you don't think it exists?

If God came to you before anything was created and told you He would create everything, from nothing - He would just speak it into existence - would you tell Him that that's impossible, since it doesn't exist? You should answer yes to that question, because you are stating here publicily that God cannot exist outside of time, because to you, it doesn't exist.

 

[Clete]

Why does this NOT include existing outside time?

Because time is nothing more than duration and sequence. It is not a place or location. It isn't something that can be entered into or exited from.

If you believe God can create everything out of nothing, that which didn't exist suddenly made to exist, then why do you reject the idea that God cannot exist outside of time because you don't think it exists?

Something either exists or it doesn't Z Man. It doesn't both exist and not exist at the same time. There is no Biblical record of God creating time. He created those things which are commonly used to mark time, to record it, but that is not the same thing. As long as there is duration and/or sequence with God then He is experiencing time because that's all time is.

If God came to you before anything was created and told you He would create everything, from nothing - He would just speak it into existence - would you tell Him that that's impossible, since it doesn't exist?

Can you say non-sequitor?

You should answer yes to that question, because you are stating here publicily that God cannot exist outside of time, because to you, it doesn't exist.

TO ME IT DOESN'T EXIST???

Z Man, you are insane. Do you really believe that I am saying something that only applies to me? I don't have anything to do with it. The truth would still be the truth whether I was around to educate you on it or not. I truly cannot believe that I am having to explain this multiple times to you.

Let me ask you a question and we'll see if you really have left the land of the sane and rational.

Could God go and visit with the Tooth Fairy or with Santa Claus right now?
If so, how?
If not, why not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Clete says:

"It's impossible for God to exist in an 'eternal now' realm. But God can create everything out of nothing."

That's insane.

 

[Clete]

Clete says:

"It's impossible for God to exist in an 'eternal now' realm. But God can create everything out of nothing."

That's insane.

It's impossible because no such eternal now realm exists. Nor is it possible for God to create such a realm because the whole notion is self contradictory. He couldn't create an eternal now realm any more than He could create perfect cubes with 117 edges. To do it would be not to do it and thus it cannot be done at all; not even by God. God is not irrational and neither is the Christian faith.

Now, I have been more responsive than your inane posts deserve, please resiprocate and answer my questions.
Could God go right now to visit the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause?
If so, how?
If not, why not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

It's impossible because no such eternal now realm exists.

Neither did all that exists today. But God made it exist.

 

[Clete]

Neither did all that exists today. But God made it exist.

As I have already said, something either exists or it does not. If an eternal now realm does not currently exist (note the impossibilty of even discussing the idea without the use of terms like "currently" which contradicts the idea itself), then God cannot go there (future tense) or be there (present tense).
Now (no punn intended), if God were to at some point (in time) create such a place then He could either be there or not depending on His desire (at the time) but the whole point is that no such place could be created any more than 1 dimentional spheres could be created because the idea is self contradictory. God cannot do the logically absurd, that's the point that you are now simply ignoring.

I ask you again, can God go and have lunch with the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus?
If so, how?
If nor, why not?

It's a simply question, why are you afraid to answer it Z Man?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[bling]

Welcome to TOL! :up:


So far as I am aware, wormholes are still completely theoretical and even if they aren't no backward time travel has ever been observed at all, ever. Also regardless of how time is "dilated" for a subatomic particle the fact remains that the particle never left the observers present and thus did not time travel.


God can do anything that is doable. Traveling through time is not doable and thus God cannot do it. Time does not exist to travel through. It is not something that can be existed inside or outside of, it is simply sequence and/or duration.


It eliminates your free will by eliminating a necessary condition of free will, that condition being an ability to do otherwise.


How about like this...
"God exists outside of time."


I recommend that you simply read the Battle Royale X. Bob has gone over all of the Omni attributes of God in some detail.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete said: wormholes are still completely theoretical and He cannot do that which is logically absurd.
The theory of relativity say time is relative. You seem to be saying you can not believe the relativity of time, because it is not logical to you. Will it is logical to most scientist at this time the same way it is most logical as you say “the creation of the physical universe is the only logical explanation for its existence.” When you try to explain the universe the most logical alternative at this time is to say, “Time is relative.” No one is coming up with any better explanation, so how can you say you have a logical explanation, when there is no other logical explanation at this time? With the idea of time being relative you have the warping of time to explain how things happen.
Clete do you have an alternative to the theory of relativity?
Clete said: Because time is nothing more than duration and sequence. It is not a place or location. It isn't something that can be entered into or exited from.
Where is you scientific evidence for this theory? Can you also explain gravity while you are at it?

I gave you a rhetorical question about God living outside of time, “how would that be described to a first century Jew?” I think it was explained not in words but by showing the Jews what God knew about the future. The 400 or so prophecies about Christ require a lot more then logical deep wisdom to figure out what will happen in that detail. God would have to stage each step of the way or be able to see into the future. If God is doing that much staging then there is no freedom on man’s part we are puppets, but if he is telling what He witnessed happening in the future then man has freedom to live out his life with God knowing his choices.

Clete says, concerning free will and God’s knowledge of the future: It eliminates your free will by eliminating a necessary condition of free will, that condition being an ability to do otherwise.
Who wrote the necessary conditions of free will and where are they written??? By your definition God does not have free will, because all He can do is the perfect thing at that moment. My ability to do otherwise is always there because I do not know what I will do in the future and God does not take my free will away by His knowing what I will do in the future. This is the way I understand God’s definition of free will for man is, so show me were God contradicts that definition?

Clete, I read up to round 3 of the debate. They can’t both be right but they both can be wrong. I find disagreement with both. I really try to develop my own thoughts so I really can not defend others ideas.

 

[Clete]

Clete said: wormholes are still completely theoretical and He cannot do that which is logically absurd.
The theory of relativity say time is relative. You seem to be saying you can not believe the relativity of time, because it is not logical to you. Will it is logical to most scientist at this time the same way it is most logical as you say “the creation of the physical universe is the only logical explanation for its existence.” When you try to explain the universe the most logical alternative at this time is to say, “Time is relative.” No one is coming up with any better explanation, so how can you say you have a logical explanation, when there is no other logical explanation at this time? With the idea of time being relative you have the warping of time to explain how things happen.

I recommend you read more of the thread. The "warping" of time is irrelivent, whether it happens or not. The entire point is that regardless of how "warped" one's time is relative to an observer, neither the observed or the observer ever leaves the others present thus no time travel ever occurs.

Clete do you have an alternative to the theory of relativity?

I have presented several on this thread. There are literally dozens of alternatives. I had no idea how many their until I started doing searches on the subject. I have seen several articles on such issues but I honestly didn't know that there was such a huge number of people who seriously think Einstein missed something and can support their belief with rigorous mathematics and sound reason.

Clete said: Because time is nothing more than duration and sequence. It is not a place or location. It isn't something that can be entered into or exited from.
Where is you scientific evidence for this theory? Can you also explain gravity while you are at it?

Can you say, non-sequitor?
It isn't a theory, it is simply a definition of the word 'time'. It wasn't until Einstein that anyone would have disagreed with it and as I have repeatedly shown on this thread and elsewhere, Einstein has not been proven to be correct.

I gave you a rhetorical question about God living outside of time, “how would that be described to a first century Jew?” I think it was explained not in words but by showing the Jews what God knew about the future. The 400 or so prophecies about Christ require a lot more then logical deep wisdom to figure out what will happen in that detail.

You need to read the Battle Royale. I don't have the time to make what would effectively be a repitition of Bob Enyart's excellent treatment of this precise issue.

God would have to stage each step of the way or be able to see into the future.

Your idea of God is weaker than mine. I don't believe God would have to do any such thing.

If God is doing that much staging then there is no freedom on man’s part we are puppets, but if he is telling what He witnessed happening in the future then man has freedom to live out his life with God knowing his choices.

This is the simple foreknowledge view which dimishes God as Bob also explained in the BR X...

...God being just another being caught up in an eternally-settled fate, unalterably written in stone, before there even was stone, written before the ages of the ages, but not by Him​

Clete says, concerning free will and God’s knowledge of the future: It eliminates your free will by eliminating a necessary condition of free will, that condition being an ability to do otherwise.
Who wrote the necessary conditions of free will and where are they written??? By your definition God does not have free will, because all He can do is the perfect thing at that moment.

There are two problems with what you've said here.
1. It assumes without cause that there is only one "perfect thing to do"
2. That God does not choose to the the perfect thing but is somehow forced to do so.

My ability to do otherwise is always there because I do not know what I will do in the future and God does not take my free will away by His knowing what I will do in the future.This is the way I understand God’s definition of free will for man is, so show me were God contradicts that definition?

Your ignorance of an inability to do otherwise doesn't magically make you able to do otherwise. Your knowledge or lack thereof is irrelivent.

Clete, I read up to round 3 of the debate. They can’t both be right but they both can be wrong. I find disagreement with both. I really try to develop my own thoughts so I really can not defend others ideas.

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of crap. Try to develope your own ideas my backside. That's probably why you cling to every word Einstein says about the nature of time, right?
At this stage of our discussion my responses to most of your questions have been answered directly by Bob Enyart in the portion of the BR X that you have already read. If you disagree with Bob's answers then respond to them here and I will treat them as responses to me and we will go from there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

As I have already said, something either exists or it does not. If an eternal now realm does not currently exist (note the impossibilty of even discussing the idea without the use of terms like "currently" which contradicts the idea itself), then God cannot go there (future tense) or be there (present tense).
Now (no punn intended), if God were to at some point (in time) create such a place then He could either be there or not depending on His desire (at the time) but the whole point is that no such place could be created any more than 1 dimentional spheres could be created because the idea is self contradictory. God cannot do the logically absurd, that's the point that you are now simply ignoring.

Then I guess this verse is wrong:

Luke 18:27
But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

According to you, it should read, "The things which are impossible with men are also impossible with God".

I ask you again, can God go and have lunch with the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus?
If so, how?
If not, why not?

It's a simply question, why are you afraid to answer it Z Man?

Are you trying to prove your point that since the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus do not exist, then therefore God does not exist in an 'eternal now' realm?

And you have the nerve to call me insane...