Of course not. Human experience exists in the "now", and so by definition any place in time that we exist is "in the present". Nonetheless, no two observers in relative motion will agree what is taking place at "now", and so "now" in a universal sense includes different points in time.
Does God know the future?
- Thread starter intro2faith
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Asked yet another way.
Let say we have our three parties again. One is traveling away from another and a third is watching the whole thing happen while perhaps being observed himself by the other two. Is there ever a point at which any one of the three is no longer capable of observing either one, or neither of the other two?
Yes or no, please!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Let say we have our three parties again. One is traveling away from another and a third is watching the whole thing happen while perhaps being observed himself by the other two. Is there ever a point at which any one of the three is no longer capable of observing either one, or neither of the other two?
Yes or no, please!
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Depends on how fast they're travelling and other stuff but I see where you are going and for the sake of arguments (i.e. nobody is travelling at 'c', assuming we have 180 degree vision, we have perfect telescopes etc, blah, blah,blah) no they can keep seeing one another indefinitely.
I love this....I know where you're going and I already know the answer
:chuckle:
:chuckle:
Don't worry I'll keep playing along!
You are truly an idiot. Just because the light you see from the sun is several minutes old doesn't mean the sun is still stuck in the past. Your partner has already pointed out the need to account for the time it takes the light to travel to you. It's just like having to assume that each observer can continue a line of sight to the observed for the question to make any sense which you conceded in you last post. Assuming that the practical elements of such observations could be worked out; that "we have 180 degree vision, we have perfect telescopes etc, blah, blah,blah) no they can keep seeing one another indefinitely."eccl3_6 said:
That's game set and match. If we don't leave the present then relativity is irrelavent to Open Theism. End of story.
Resting in Him,
Clete
justchristian
New member
If time is relative, what is God relative to? And how would that affect his perception of time? I think I started all this trying to show time is a thing (not like a tree) but something that can be affected. It is a part of the universe like gravity, electromagnetism etc. Therefore it is created and not the same as what God experiences within the trinity.
justchristian said:
There you have it if....God created time why then should He be goverened by the nature of time, He already exists outside it. The open theists are arguing that time 'just is' and has always been just as God 'is'. We, yourself included Justchristian, have highlighted that time is a real thing in the same sense as gravity is real and behaves differently depending on your relation to it.
Time is not set but relative and this goes againts open theism. It is why they reluctantly answered the question 'do you believe in relativity' and why they cannot allow themselves to accept it. Because it, the way God made the universe, is contradictory to open theism.
Open Theism.....Why the Vatican now employs physicists.
The THEORY of Relativity does give credence to the idea that time is a thing but as I've have said seemingly a thousand times, there are multiple theories that account for the same observed phenomina that Relativity accounts for but without requiring the existence of time or even a fourth dimention in one particular case. And these are real theories that have the same amount of mathematical and observational support as Relativity does. The only thing that most of these theories don't have is the respect of the scientific community but that is not even evidence that they are not correct. The problem the scientific community has at this point is that thousands of physisist would have to throw out their entire carreers worth of work if they found out that time is not a thing and what they've believed all this time has been incorrect. And don't be fooled, that is a very real possibility and so there is a biult in conflict of interest in the scientific community. The point being that as long as there is multiple viable theories then none of those theories can be said to have been proven. For any theory of science to be proven, all other competing theories must be falsified, until that happens Relativity will remain a theory.justchristian said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
Their agreement is not necessary. The fact that they can all observe oneanother is proof that they all exist together at the same moment in time.Johnny said:
They all experience, in one way or another, 12:01:14.00002345pm central time on the 13th of July (to use a clock standard that we are all familiar with), and at that precise moment or any other moment you want to pick they can all observe eachother. No one has ever left the present, they exist and will continue exist NOW and only now. There is simply nothing about any scientific theory that even suggests otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
DaringlyStupid
New member
Of course this problem extends to other areas as well:Clete said:
The only thing that Open Theism doesn't have is the respect of the Christian theological community but that is not even evidence that it is not Biblical and correct. The problem the theological community has at this point is that thousands of theologeans, pastors, etc. would have to throw out their entire careers' worth of work if they found out that time is not a thing and what they've believed all this time has been incorrect. And don't be fooled, that is a very real possibility and so there is a built-in conflict of interest in the theological community.
justchristian
New member
Yea I buy that time dilation has to do with the same moment in time experienced at different rates not different moments in time experienced simultaneously.
So are you saying that IF time is a thing it proves Open Thiesm wrong as God would have created it? That's just an if. I just want to be clear.
eccl3_6 said:
Wooden literalism to support a preconceived idea. A comparison using like or as is a simile, a figure of speech (cf. hyperbole at the end of John). For an everlasting God, a thousand literal years is a wisp. For finite creatures who die, a thousand years is many lifetimes. There is no literal correspondence, but a figure of speech to show that His Coming is not delayed (though it seemed like it to the early believers who expected it in their life time).