Does God know the future?

justchristian

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I tried starting another thread ignoring relativity since we seem to be at an impass. But I can post my thought here to.

Why does a future free will choice have to be contingent now to be free? Are our past choices any less our own because they are not contingent now? Free will choices aren't free because the are contigent, they are contigent becasue they are free. It doesnt matter when the choice was made, only that it was our will that made the choice. I can buy Knight's position that God in so much as his interaction with us chooses to be surprised and interact with us with a limited view of the future. But ultimately God must and does know the future.
 

eccl3_6

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Clete said:
"rationalism vs. empiricism"


Well I'm responding Clete.....(first time you've been right isn't it? :D )

Empirical adj. (of knowledge) based on observation or experiment, not on theory.

Rationalism, also known as the rationalist movement, is a philosophical doctrine that asserts that the truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma or religious teaching.


Damn right my science uses both of these Clete. Science observes, contemplates and observes again. I will not renounce reason and logic because the pulpit has commanded me to do so. Empiricism is not at odds with rationalism...it is at contrast to because one reflects on the other.

Science is to observe,
which is contrasted with contemplation,
which is contrasted with observation.
This is the nature of a scientist.

rationalism vs. empiricism......leave it where it should be left, in the 18th century.


If anyone wishes to see a progression of the metaphysical argument Justchristian has begun an excellent alternative thread in the forum.
 

godrulz

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I still think presentism (only the present exists; the past is a memory; the future is not yet) vs eternalism is relevant. Clete is correct that the former resonates with reality and common sense. If time dilation is so true, it should be consistent with one of these views.
 

eccl3_6

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godrulz said:
I still think presentism (only the present exists; the past is a memory; the future is not yet) vs eternalism is relevant. Clete is correct that the former resonates with reality and common sense. If time dilation is so true, it should be consistent with one of these views.

Thats the problem right there, "If time dilation is so true, it should be consistent with one of these views".

Time dilation wasn't made up with either of these views in consideration. It was made through consideration and verified through observation and experimentation. Whether it fits is irrelevant. It is just as it is. If your view cannot be resolved with the created world I would suggest that your view was wrong. You may contest this of course, and I would defend your right to do so, but I would feel that this would be akin to putting your head in the sand.

Through logic 'eternity past' is contradictory. It is the same as writing 'that which cannot end' 's end

If God experiences time as we do then the phenomenon of different time references which can be recorded must be 'sanitised' or you must accept that God, being omnipresent, does not simply experience time as one person does.

If you cannot 'sanitise' time dilation and insist that God experiences time as 'one person does' then this is where the previous contradiction arises.

To sanitise 'time dilation' you must explain that which has been observed.

If you need any help in familiarising yourself with the subject matter (physics or maths) I will be only to happy to help. However the scientific community and all their combined intellect are in agreeance with that which we have observed.
 
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Clete

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Okay I simply can't resist. So sue me - I'm sick or something!

eccl3_6 said:
Thats the problem right there, "If time dilation is so true, it should be consistent with one of these views".
IF it is true it is consistent with Open Theism as I have already demonstrated in my last post, that portion of which you didn't respond to at all.

Time dilation wasn't made up with either of these views in consideration. It was made through consideration and verified through observation and experimentation.
This is an overstatement but I will no longer contest it as it is irrelevent.

Whether it fits is irrelevant. It is just as it is. If your view cannot be resolved with the created world I would suggest that your view was wrong. You may contest this of course, and I would defend your right to do so, but I would feel that this would be akin to putting your head in the sand.
With this much I can agree with you completely. The universe is as it is and a theology that is in conflict with reality is incorrect by definition. The dispute here however is over the nature of reality not about whether our theology agrees with it or not.

Through logic 'eternity past' is contradictory. It is the same as writing 'that which cannot end' 's end
The past has no beginning, that alone makes it eternal.

If God experiences time as we do then the phenomenon of different time references which can be recorded must be 'sanitised' or you must accept that God, being omnipresent, does not simply experience time as one person does.
This is irrelivent. It makes no difference how God experiences time. Nothing you've presented anywhere in this thread even suggests that God or anyone else exists at any other time than right now. How a person (God or otherwise) is experiencing the passage of time at this moment is irrelavent to the fact that they only exist in the present.

If you cannot 'sanitise' time dilation and insist that God experiences time as 'one person does' then this is where the previous contradiction arises.

To sanitise 'time dilation' you must explain that which has been observed.
See above response. What has been observed is irrelevent to the fact that all things that exist do so NOW and only now. Nothing about time dilation suggests otherwise.

If you need any help in familiarising yourself with the subject matter (physics or maths) I will be only to happy to help. However the scientific community and all their combined intellect are in agreeance with that which we have observed.
All of this is irrelevent unless you can demonstrate that someone exists at some other point in time other than the present.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Turbo

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eccl3_6 said:
Metaphysics against a physical argument....sorry it doesn't apply, you've been confusing the two for a long time now. I am not going to be drawn into such a metaphysical argument because I don't need to in order to refute open theism.

Clete said:
The more appropriate terms for such an objection would "rationalism vs. empiricism" but the point is eccl3_6's own science uses both to get to the conclusion that he is defending in this thread and he cannot exclude either one without destroying his own argument.

eccl3_6 said:
Damn right my science uses both of these Clete. Science observes, contemplates and observes again. I will not renounce reason and logic because the pulpit has commanded me to do so. Empiricism is not at odds with rationalism...it is at contrast to because one reflects on the other.

Science is to observe,
which is contrasted with contemplation,
which is contrasted with observation.
This is the nature of a scientist.

rationalism vs. empiricism......leave it where it should be left, in the 18th century.
It's comical to see you concede a point while trying to make it sound like you're refuting it. It's no wonder Clete is frustrated with you.

Who is demanding that you renounce reason and logic? Certainly not Clete!
 

justchristian

New member
I think it's funny how this agruement against relativity has come down to "it must be wrong it conflicts with Open Thiesm." That's the spirit. Nevermind any other rational rebuttle. It's wrong because it proves wrong what I and a small majority of Christianity have cooked up. I think we've definately beat this dead horse to long.
 

Nathon Detroit

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justchristian said:
I think it's funny how this agruement against relativity has come down to "it must be wrong it conflicts with Open Thiesm." That's the spirit. Nevermind any other rational rebuttle. It's wrong because it proves wrong what I and a small majority of Christianity have cooked up. I think we've definately beat this dead horse to long.
:kookoo:
 

justchristian

New member
Ohh good come back.

Please don't smite me:)

I think everyone has just said what they have to say ten times over regarding relativity vs Open Thiesm. eccl3_6 says it conficts most others say it can't (not that it doesnt)
 

Nathon Detroit

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justchristian said:
Ohh good come back.

Please don't smite me:)

I think everyone has just said what they have to say ten times over regarding relativity vs Open Thiesm. eccl3_6 says it conficts most others say it can't (not that it doesnt)
Your post was a complete mischaracterization of the debate so therefore you get the :kookoo: smilie.

If you are going to debate and then make a rebuttal at least take the time to understand what you are rebutting which obviously you do not.
 

justchristian

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That's the spirit. Now just so we are clear, are you saying I don't understand Open Thiesm? Cause your probably right. But I am getting to it I swear. I have the link and everything. So I think I'll take you're advice and :shut: or at least reduce my rebuttles to humble questions.
 

Nathon Detroit

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justchristian said:
That's the spirit. Now just so we are clear, are you saying I don't understand Open Thiesm? Cause your probably right. But I am getting to it I swear. I have the link and everything. So I think I'll take you're advice and :shut: or at least reduce my rebuttles to humble questions.
Actually it seems to be worse than that.

It seems to me you don't really have a clue as to the what is going on within this thread.

You misrepresented me earlier on this thread and then you used the quote.... "it must be wrong it conflicts with Open Theism." which is yet another misrepresentation of what is being said. So it isn't that you misunderstand Open Theism (which you probably do) but its that you don't even understand the debate on this thread.

Therefore, before you go making "smarty pants" comments I suggest you actually think the issue through a bit. It might be fun!
 

Johnny

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ell that puts the Mr. Kirk, the observer on Earth and Mr. Motionless all three in the same "time frame". They all three exist at the same time.
Although they all three may exist at the same time, what they call "now" is entirely relative.

You're still caught up thinking in a Newtonian sense. In Dr. Greene's book "The Fabric of the Cosmos", he illustrates the point using "now-lists". According to classical laws (and common experience), everyone in the universe should agree upon any given freeze-frame snapshot of the universe. For example, assume I am keeping and updating "now lists". I want to do a "now list" of the position of the sun in the galaxy. I know that it takes roughly 8 minutes for the light from the sun to reach me, and so I can deduce the position of the sun 8 minutes ago. I add that to the "now-list" of 8 minutes ago. The same thing applies for Johnny Alien on Planet Z 10 light years away. He realizes that it takes 10 years for the light from our sun to reach him, and so he adds the position of our sun in the galaxy to the "now-list" from 10 years ago. According to Newton (and Clete), everyone in the universe would agree that the sun was in position X at time Y. Thus, everyone's "freeze frame" of the universe is the exact same snapshot.

However, according to special relativity, two observers in motion will not agree on "now". Imagine that me and Johnny Alien are separated by 10-billion light years (there are two ways to magnify the effects of relativity, increasing the distance and increasing the velocity. This example deals with large distances and small velocities). Although separated by 10 billion light years, assume we are motionless relative to each other. We begin recording "now-lists" of the events on Earth. Because we are motionless relative to each other, our now-events line up perfectly. He records atomic nuclei decaying at the same time I do. Assume that Johnny Alien gets up and runs away from the my position (the earth) at 10 miles/hr. He still keeps-his now lists, except when they are compared, the events on his now-list occured 150 years ago on my now-list. He now hops in a jet and travels 1,000 miles/hr towards earth. The events on his now-list occured 15,000 years in the future, according to my now-list.

Even stranger is looking at Johnny Alien's now-list the moment before and the moment after he begins jogging away from earth. While JA is sitting motionless relative to me, he is recording the same "now" as I am. However, the moment he gets up, he is recording John Wilkes Booth assasinating Lincoln, even though that occured over a century ago for me.

Here is the bottom line, and the entire reason special relativity is extremely relevant to the discussion at hand. This is important, please consider it entirely and thoroughly before you respond:

If you accept that reality (i.e. what you call "now") is the freeze-frame snapshot of the universe in the present, and if you accept special relativity, then you must accept that true reality encompasses all of the events in spacetime--past, present, and future. Because the perception of 'now' for any observer is no more valid than the perception of any other observer (according to special relativity), and the perception of 'now' is completely relative, then any observer in the universe can potentially be experiencing any 'now' (past, present, or future). Thus, the true reality of the universe encompasses all "nows".

The only possbile avenue of refutation here is to debate special relativity. No one here has presented a valid refutation, and I strongly believe that no one here will ever present a valid argument (mathematical or otherwise) against relativity. Given that relativity has nearly 100 years of experimental and theoretical support, and has been universally accepted among the physics and mathematical community, I strongly feel that anyone claiming that they have either refuted relativity or that relativity doesn't have adequate support does not understand relativity, its implications, or its evidences, and is thus talking out of their rear end.
 

justchristian

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You misrepresented me earlier on this thread and then you used the quote.... "it must be wrong it conflicts with Open Theism." which is yet another misrepresentation of what is being said. So it isn't that you misunderstand Open Theism (which you probably do) but its that you don't even understand the debate on this thread.
I wasn't quote you there I was paraphrasing Clete
IF it is true it is consistent with Open Theism as I have already demonstrated in my last post, that portion of which you didn't respond to at all.
I am a little more sarcastic and brazen then usual...long day sorry.
 

eccl3_6

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Clete said:
The past has no beginning, that alone makes it eternal.

I've told the Creator you said this.

He wasn't happy.








If you're accepting GR,SR Clete you've accepted time as a thing
.....so it was made!
:BRAVO:​
 
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eccl3_6

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Turbo said:
It's comical to see you concede a point while trying to make it sound like you're refuting it. Who is demanding that you renounce reason and logic? Certainly not Clete!

It was neither conceding nor refuting the point....it was dismissing the point has not existing Turbo. Rationalism vs. empiricism was all the rage in the 18th century. Some people still try an argue it now....Clete is.

It all kinda went belly up when a chap called Einstein came along.
Many of his 'experiments' were what he called 'thought experiments'. He thought about different circumstances (like we did with Kirk's spaceship). In this sense he was not being empirical. But the mathmaticians and astronomers then proceeded down his avenue of thought and the thought and the observation were married.


This is once more yet another example of your antequated philosophy struggling to keep up with contemporary science.
 

DaringlyStupid

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Knight said:
You misrepresented me earlier on this thread and then you used the quote.... "it must be wrong it conflicts with Open Theism." which is yet another misrepresentation of what is being said.
justchristian said:
I wasn't quote you there I was paraphrasing Clete
I think what Knight was saying is that:

at some point earlier in this thread you misrepresented him...

...and then (later, in post #1449)...

...you made another misrepresentation of what is being said by posting your so-called paraphrase, which you did put in quotes (although everyone understood that you weren't really quoting anyone nor were you trying to pass off your "paraphrase" as an actual quote).
 

eccl3_6

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So anyone keeping on track....

Both Johnny and myself have posted threads now saying that to continue arguing Open Theism and your concept of existence in time is to ignore certain characteristics of nature.

Either denounce relativity and it's spin off implications (namely time dilation/multiple time frames) and come with an alternative theory that explains what we are seeing.

Or​


Admit that to believe in Open Theism necessitates keeping ones head in the sand.
 
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