Does God know the future?

[intro2faith]

what do you think about what Godrulz said?
let's do a hypothetical
a baby dies shortly after birth
dosen't get a chance to hear about Jesus
which book is he in?

Good question. The baby has not yet reached the age of accountability, so he/she will go to Heaven.

 

[Clete]

Good question. The baby has not yet reached the age of accountability, so he/she will go to Heaven.

Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well said. :up:

I agree 100%.

If the alternative were true, one could make a good argument that abortion might actually be a good thing because it guarantee's a babies place in heaven. (I realize that is a sick thought but there are people who actually believe this).

 

[intro2faith]

Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well, here is some info I got from a website, I guess everyone can just make their own decisions!

2 SAMUEL 12:23—Do those who die in infancy go to heaven?

PROBLEM:

The Scriptures teach that we are born in sin (Ps. 51:5) because we “all sinned [in Adam]” (Rom. 5:12). Yet David implies here that his baby, who died, will be in heaven, saying, “I shall go to him” (v. 23).

SOLUTION:

There are three views regarding children who die before the age of accountability, that is, before they are old enough to be morally responsible for their own actions.

Only Elect Infants Go to Heaven.

Some strong Calvinists believe that only those babies that are predestined go to heaven (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:29). Those who are not elect go to hell. They see no greater problem with infant predestination than with adult predestination, insisting that everyone is deserving of hell and that it is only by God’s mercy that any are saved (Titus 3:5–6).

Only Infants Who Would Have Believed Go to Heaven.

Others claim that God knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10) and the potential as well as the actual. Thus, God knows those infants and little children who would have believed in Christ had they lived long enough. Otherwise, they contend, there would be people in heaven who would not have believed in Christ, which is contrary to Scripture (John 3:36). All infants whom God knows would not have believed, had they lived long enough, will go to hell.

All Infants Go to Heaven.

Still others believe that all who die before the age of accountability will go to heaven. They base this on the following Scriptures. First, Isaiah 7:16 speaks of an age before a child is morally accountable, namely, “before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” Second, David believed in life after death and the resurrection (Ps. 16:10–11), so when he spoke of going to be with his son who died after birth (2 Sam. 12:23), he implied that those who die in infancy go to heaven. Third, Psalm 139 speaks of an unborn baby as a creation of God whose name is written down in God’s “book” in heaven (vv. 14–16). Fourth, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14), thus indicating that even little children will be in heaven. Fifth, some see support in Jesus’ affirmation that even “little ones” (i.e., children) have a guardian angel “in heaven” who watches over them (Matt. 18:10). Sixth, the fact that Christ’s death for all made little children savable, even before they believed (Rom. 5:18–19). Finally, Jesus’ indication that those who did not know were not morally responsible (John 9:41) is used to support the belief that there is heaven for those who cannot yet believe, even though there is no heaven for those who are old enough and refuse to believe (John 3:36).

 

[nancy]

Clete, without going into the causal determinism, you haven't addressed the issue.

In terms of the chemical experiment, how is standing back and observing how the chemicals react CAUSING the chemical reaction itself.

Foreknowledge or observing an outcome is not causal.

 

[fool]

I can't find the verse right now but I seem to remember somthing about the spirits of the children always being in Gods presence
anyone?

 

[fool]

Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

how can we make this dovetail with the "no sadness in heaven" concept put forth by Intro2faith?
or does it not?

 

[nancy]

Clete, God created us to have free will. In other words God CAUSED us to have free will. The fact that God caused us to have human freedom makes freedom free not unfree. Grace establishes nature rather than removing it.

You are right that free will is the the cause of its own movement. But what is free is not necesarily the cause of itself as neither for one thing to be the cause of another has to be the first cause.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

I've heard lots of different views on this subject, and I'd love to hear yours!
Here are some starting questions:

Does God know the future?

If He does, how FAR into the future?

There's plenty more, but those are some starters

God doesn't need to know the future, nor does God need to plan things out.
God is not subject to time, only creatures who are subject to time find it necessary to make plans. God doesnt need to make plans because of the space/time continuim is subject to God, not the other way around.

Also, God doesn't have a plan for your life, your life is God's will.

 

[nancy]

God is not subject to time he is eternal. Eternal means without succession. The future is a propety of time as the temporal is successsion. Therefore God being eternal would know everything past, present and future in a similtaneous all encompassing "moment."

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

God is not subject to time he is eternal. Eternal means without succession. The future is a propety of time as the temporal is successsion. Therefore God being eternal would know everything past, present and future in a similtaneous all encompassing "moment."

Or is the Creator of past,present and future - the whole of the space/time continuim, so its not so much that God knows the future but creates it in accordance to His will.

 

[Nineveh]

Doesn't "creating" take time?

 

[nancy]

No, creation can concievably occur without the passage of time.

 

[Poly]

No, creation can concievably occur without the passage of time.

Can you give us biblical evidence to support this?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Doesn't "creating" take time?

For you it does, but not for God. God didnt draw out a blueprint of the universe gather the materials and proceeded with hammers and nail and a crew of illegal alien evles to build it, God just brought it into being. God didnt say to Himself. "On day one I will make light, on day two I separate the waters..." and so on...God doesnt need to do that.

 

[Poly]

For you it does, but not for God. God didnt draw out a blueprint of the universe gather the materials and proceeded with hammers and nail and a crew of illegal alien evles to build it, God just brought it into being. God didnt say to Himself. "On day one I will make light, on day two I separate the waters..." and so on...God doesnt need to do that.

Wow, it must be nice for God to have told you this in person.

This has to be the case, right? Since there's no biblical evidence for it, surely you wouldn't just be pulling stuff out of thin air.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Wow, it must be nice for God to have told you this in person.

This has to be the case, right? Since there's no biblical evidence for it, surely you wouldn't just be pulling stuff out of thin air.

So what you are saying is God is subject to time.

 

[Poly]

So what you are saying is God is subject to time.

Yes. Can you point any biblical evidence to the contrary or is this something that you have heard others say and it kind of just sounds good to you so you choose to believe it?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Yes. Can you point any biblical evidence to the contrary or is this something that you have heard others say and it kind of just sounds good to you so you choose to believe it?

can you show me biblical support for God being subject to time? Ig God is subject to time, then Time is bigger thatn God, and we shouldnt be worshipping God but Time. But the Bible says all things and that means all things including time are subject to God. But you say differently, so i have to agree with you instead of the Bible.

 

[Yorzhik]

This is called 'Causal Determinism' and cannot be true and the Christian faith have any meaning whatsoever. Most people who subscribe to this belief will not go so far as to insist that God is subject to the same causality constraints but will not or cannot explain why if He is not subject to causality, and we are made in His image, that we must be.

Causality is indeed a powerful argument though because we seem to be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory. If you take the exact same amount of chemical and expose them to the exact same set of conditions, the resulting reaction will yield the exact same result every single time. It is important to point out however that this is not possible to accomplish. It’s just is not possible to get an exactly identical lump of sodium chloride dissolved into an exactly identical beaker of water. Even if you knew for sure that you had the exact same number of molecules of each substance, even one out of place electron on a single hydrogen atom is sufficient to call the experiment "different" and so such hypothetical situations do not exist in reality.

Further, even if such situations could exist we can know that the "causality principle" cannot apply to any situation in which a person with a free will is involved. We can know this because of another principle known as the ‘law of non-contradiction’. Causal Determinism is antithetical to free will, they are mutually exclusive and so to suggest that we have a free will in a rigorously causal universe is a logical absurdity. So if we could imagine a set of hypothetical twins who’s circumstances are exactly identical and who are faced with making the same decision, assuming that they do in fact have a free will, one twin can choose to do while the other chooses to do otherwise, causal factors not withstanding. It is my belief that it is the will itself that is the determining cause of such action on the part of our rebellious twin.

Further still, Causal Determinism is hostile to the Christian world view in many important ways, not the least of which is the fact that it renders concepts like love, justice, and morality meaningless. Love, as I mentioned in a previous post, must be chosen. If I do not choose of my own will to love someone then I do not love them at all. If my choices are determined by some causal chain of events then they are not chosen and love is nothing more than the result of a mindless precession of one cause after another. Love is meaningless in a universe where actions are not free. And if love is meaningless so is Christianity because Christianity is, by definition, the loving of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Wow, Clete. That's an awesome response. Let's hope Nancy reads that before she responds.

What say ye, Nancy?