Does God know the future?
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SOTK said:You know, you guys are always accusing us of wanting to have our cake and eat it to, and yet I don't understand how you fail to see that this is what you are doing with Open Theology.
You basically say that God knows "parts" of the future but not the free will "parts".Wouldn't this theology be better described as the Kinda Open View.
Seriously though, I can't keep up with you guys. Sometimes you guys say that God does not know any of the future (the whole the future doesn't exist argument) and then at other times you guys say "Well, God knows some things". :freak:
And then there's the whole "manipulation" part of the Open View. You guys adamantly defend free will but then say that God goes around manipulating to bring about His will. So, Godrulz, I ask you, "Just how 'free' is your free will then?"
Really, if there is any Theology that wants their cake and eat it too, it is the one that you espouse.
Is it possible you do not fully understand the Open View? If you did, you would not be confused, even if you did not accept it as true. The other problem is that there is not one systematic view. Sanders, Pinnock, Boyd, Rice, McCabe, Basinger, Hasker, Craig, etc. do not agree on every detail.
There is no kinda open view. The only way to take all relevant verses literally, without proof texting and ignoring some passages, is to recognize that God knows some of the future as settled (Calvinistic, predestination proof texts) and other aspects of the future as unsettled/open (Open Theism proof texts). The former verses does not mean that the future has happened or is seen before it happens. God still knows it as potential, not actual until it unfolds in real time/duration/sequence. Examples of this are unconditional prophecies where God purposes to bring things to pass by His ABILITY, not foreknowledge (Is. 46; 48). Prophecies about the first and second coming of the Messiah are knowable as a certainty because God will bring it to pass regardless of what man does or does not do. The prophecies are specific, yet they do not specify minute details. God creatively brings them to pass and He does not have to know where every molecule, man, or animal is in the future. God knew the Messiah would come in the fullness of time (Gal.) after the Fall. If there was a delay in the maturation of the Greek language, Roman roads, Jewish expectations, the Messiah could have been delayed. Likewise, the Second Coming does not have to happen in 2007. There is enough room in prophecy to have His return contingent on events on earth. Revelation has many general pictures. It does not come down to what the Antichrist will eat 3 years after his rise.
The Open texts show that God can and does change His mind. He can truthfully declare Hezekiah a dead man, and then change His mind and add 15 years to His life. God can respond creatively to prayer and changing contingencies. He is not locked into a deterministic future.
Our Calvinist friends make the wrong assumption that because God determines some of the future, that He must control, decree, or determine all of the future. This is problematic to self-evident free will. Hyper-sovereignty is not a biblical model. Sovereignty can be providential, rather than meticulous control. To get around this, they redefine free will (compatibilism) or make Open Theist texts figurative (God changing His mind, etc.).
The future does not exist. We all agree on this. The 2008 Superbowl is not a literal reality or objective of knowledge in the universe or mind of God. It is known as it unfolds. At some point, we all know who will be in it. We do not know for sure that the Second Coming of Christ will not happen during the game. Just because God knew the Messiah would come, does not mean creation, incarnation, Second Coming literally happen in one 'eternal now' moment in God's reality. Duration/succession/time/sequence have always existed within the relations of the triune God. This is necessary for will, intellect, emotions, and relations to exist. Just because God will bring the Messiah into the world, does not mean He is manipulating free will, especially as it relates to eternal destinies. The determined issues do not violate moral free will or we would not be accountable. Another root issue is that Calvinistic assumptions (TULIP) are deductive and simply not defensible. If one comes from this perspective, it will be hard to be open to the alternate explanation. Calvinists do not just have a problem with Open Theism, they have the same issues with Arminians. It is easier to be an Arminian-Open Theist (free will theisms) than to be a Calvinistic-Open Theist (incompatible).
Libertarian free will precludes the possibility of exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. This is sometimes hard to understand since few of us have a philosophy, logical fallacy, critical thinking background. We are also influenced by our simplistic views presented to laymen. Modal logic, etc. is needed to see why the two cannot co-exist logically. It is not a problem with God. It is the classic problem of logical contradictions and stupid questions such as can God create a rock too heavy to lift (no)?
We do not want our cake and eat it too. We just recognize that both sets of proof texts can be taken literally (vs one literal/one figurative) with the alternate explanation known as Open Theism. Even if there are some concerns and questions (rooster crowing for Peter...there are plausible explanations), they are far less problematic than determinism or simple foreknowledge.
nancy said:
We are predestined IN HIM. He is the chosen one. The Church is His choice one. We become IN HIM through repentant faith (not coerced). Once we are in Him, we share all the promises and purposes that were predestined for those who become in Him. There is no need to predestine individuals. If they are predestined, any sense of free will and responsibility goes out the window. God then becomes directly responsible for sin, evil, and sending people to hell that He could save if He would only decree it. Love, justice, holiness, etc. would be compromised.
Freak, it is tragic that you have fallen into believing in limited atonement.Freak said:
You, used to be a great defender that Christ died for everyone and not just for the few lucky preselected ones.
nancy said:
God's election can be resisted. God predestined Israel for a purpose, but she became a harlot for a time.
Are individuals elected and predestined to be saved (unconditional election) before they are born from all eternity? (no) Do people become part of the elect through their free will response to God's invitation "whosoever will may come...chose today whom you will serve..."? (yes) God predestines that those who believe will be saved. He does not predestine who will or will not be saved (double predestination/reprobation). This is highly contradictory to God's character and revelation. Jettison your philosophical assumptions and exegete biblically.
I think this post of your demonstrates your error in thinking.nancy said:
God had predestined that the Body of Christ (a group made up of FUTURE yet to be named individuals) would be considered holy and blameless until the day of redemption. God will apply Christ's work on the cross (as payment for sin) to anyone (any individual) who joins that group. When God made this predetermination no group existed! Yet it was a plan for future individuals who may at some point join into the body of believers.
The group could be made up of any individuals, but the promise to the individual is kept if they have joined the group. It's basically like God saying . . . "If you come to me, this is the promise I will keep for you."
Freak said:
If God elects some for salvation, then by default He non-elects or reprobates others. Individual predestination/election logically limits the atonement to the elect. A general redemption precludes individual election before they are even born. The atonement (objective) is unlimited in intent and scope (universal), but its subjective appropriation is only applied to those who meet the conditions of repentant faith. One becomes part of the elect upon faith, not from eternity past by divine fiat.
You promote the doctrine of limited atonement when you state.....Freak said:
If God chose individuals for salvation then it also follows that He DIDN'T choose other individuals for salvation.
These unchosen individuals have no hope for atonement.
That is limited atonement in a nutshell!
Maybe you could comment on your statement....
Freak
New member
No. God is not willing for any to perish. He did not create hell for humans. We have free will to choose Christ. Those who reject Christ enter eternal hell (God did not elect people to go to hell).godrulz said:
Did I not just say that? Godrulz, get off your high horse & actually read what I posted, ok?
Uh Freak? Earth to Freak . . . Hello?Freak said:
Godrulz was commenting on your statement:
Freak
New member
God loves the world (John 3:16). Everyone will have an opportunity to choose Jesus (free will). Yes, there is divine election, though, I believe, it is misunderstood, for it is a divine concept that finite man is incapable of fully understanding, in light of the truth of free will. The Scriptures teach free will & divine election. I understand both of these truths.Knight said:
The apostle Peter tells us:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Freak
New member
Yes, God elects and yet gives everyone free will. There are some divine truths about God we simply do not fully understand (the incarnation, the triune nature of God, etc we simply trust God's Word on these truths). Free will and divine election are truths Scriptures teachKnight said:
Freak
New member
drbrumley said:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I do not believe in limited atonement.
Yet, I do believe in divine election...
...be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Great point - so why then would God pre-choose certain individuals and leave others unchosen with no hope for atonement?Freak said:
Answer me this.....
Since you believe
Do the individuals that were not pre-chosen have hope for atonement?