Shasta
Well-known member
and I thought you disliked evasion.
Does God Create Reprobates?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
and I thought you disliked evasion.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
beloved57
Well-known member
Apparently you don't!
Just read your comments on this elsewhere, and what you said is so true, and what it reveals is that man will always seek first to save his own skin; even if his doctrine means the damnation of the souls of other human beings so long as he is not forced to part asunder his own soul. Yet this is exactly what Yeshua says his disciples must do:
Matthew 16:23-27
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan, you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If any will come after me, let him utterly forsake himself, and take up his stake, and follow me:
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find her.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward each one according to his works.
Luke 14:26-27
26. If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever does not bear his stake, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
And the examples Paul uses from Romans 9 are only two among many:
Romans 9:12-20 KJV
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul is not saying that God creates one person just to destroy him in the end because this would surely not be upright; and is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid, therefore the point is that two vessels come forth from the one selfsame lump of clay: and the clay is the earthen vessel of the man, the body, heart, mind, and soul, which must be apollumi, torn down, destroyed, parted asunder. If a person refuses to do so then he or she cannot even be a disciple of Yeshua. It is clearly not physical but supernal typology, for as said above, these examples are many, beginning with Cain and Abel, then Ishmael and Isaac, then the two examples of which Paul uses, which are Esau and Jacob, then Pharaoh and Moses. All of the firstborns are analogies of the flesh while all of the second vessels are Spirit. It is the same old conflict from the beginning where the flesh lusts and wars against the supernal-spiritual. Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh are supernal typology of the old man carnal and sinful nature which we must be willing cut off from ourselves so as to put on "the new Head", that is, the mind of Messiah, by consuming all of his Testimony-Doctrine.
Just read your comments on this elsewhere, and what you said is so true, and what it reveals is that man will always seek first to save his own skin; even if his doctrine means the damnation of the souls of other human beings so long as he is not forced to part asunder his own soul. Yet this is exactly what Yeshua says his disciples must do:
Matthew 16:23-27
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan, you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If any will come after me, let him utterly forsake himself, and take up his stake, and follow me:
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find her.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward each one according to his works.
Luke 14:26-27
26. If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever does not bear his stake, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
And the examples Paul uses from Romans 9 are only two among many:
Romans 9:12-20 KJV
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul is not saying that God creates one person just to destroy him in the end because this would surely not be upright; and is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid, therefore the point is that two vessels come forth from the one selfsame lump of clay: and the clay is the earthen vessel of the man, the body, heart, mind, and soul, which must be apollumi, torn down, destroyed, parted asunder. If a person refuses to do so then he or she cannot even be a disciple of Yeshua. It is clearly not physical but supernal typology, for as said above, these examples are many, beginning with Cain and Abel, then Ishmael and Isaac, then the two examples of which Paul uses, which are Esau and Jacob, then Pharaoh and Moses. All of the firstborns are analogies of the flesh while all of the second vessels are Spirit. It is the same old conflict from the beginning where the flesh lusts and wars against the supernal-spiritual. Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh are supernal typology of the old man carnal and sinful nature which we must be willing cut off from ourselves so as to put on "the new Head", that is, the mind of Messiah, by consuming all of his Testimony-Doctrine.
Things are not the same under the law as they are under grace.
Under grace... "God so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son" John 3:16.
Under grace... "God is not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.
Under grace... "For by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8.
You need to get out of the Old Testament and get into the New Testament so that you can see the wonderful things that God has done for us in Jesus Christ.
I have seen the grace of God first hand after twenty seven years of believing the spoon-fed doctrines of man that you have been taught. You have seen nothing of true grace and this I know by your false doctrines. You have no clue about the grace of God, except for what you only read and hear about as a bystander from without, but you do not know the grace of God first hand. If you did you would understand Paul and the vail would have been lifted from your heart, mind, and eyes, when you read the primary covenant, (which you erroneously call the Old Testament).
2 Corinthians 12:2-9
2. I knew a man in Messiah [#1] before fourteen years ago; whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell, (God knows) such a one was harpazo-caught up unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I knew a man, [#2] such a one, whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell, God knows:
4. How that he was harpazo-caught up into the Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he sees me to be, or that he hears of me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8. For this thing I besought the Master thrice, that it might depart from me.
9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Messiah may rest upon me.
THIS is the context of what you call "reprobates" from the next chapter which you quoted in your OP statement:
2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5. Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Messiah Yeshua is in you, except you be castaways?
6. But I trust that you shall know that we are not castaways!
Original Strong's Ref. #96
Romanized adokimos
Pronounced ad-ok'-ee-mos
from GSN0001 (as a negative particle) and GSN1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):
KJV--castaway, rejected, reprobate.
And why does he say castaways? Because they are the rejected and because the kingdom of Elohim is like a fishing net in the doctrine of the Master Teacher, (Matthew 13:47-48) and Paul clearly tells you that the things he writes and teaches are the commandments of the Lord, (1 Corinthians 14:37).
Matthew 13:47-48
47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
The bad are the castaway fish, (carcasses, i.e. "the flesh man") and this is what happened to Saul in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 quoted above. One was caught up to the "third heaven" and one was caught up to "the Paradise", (which are not the same). One heard things uttered which are not lawful for a man to utter, (spoken by the other because I know first hand). Have you been caught up? Have you heard such things? Have you been to the Bema Seat of the Master? You will face yourself in that day, your own scapegoat twin, and if indeed you overcome in your appointed time, (YHWH knows) then perhaps you will understand the true grace of Elohim; for there is no escaping that place and time but through the forfeiture of your own soul. How else do you suppose Paul knew about the Bema of Messiah, (where Saul became Paul)? You know nothing yet presume to condemn others in your profane babblings which you fancy as some sort of theology. Your old man twin will be the castaway in that day; and then shall you too know the terror, (and grace) of Elohim:
2 Corinthians 5:8-11 KJV
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Come back and tell us all about it when you have been absent from your carcass, your old man is a cast away, you have a new name given you from the Master having been written upon a white stone of approval, and you know both the terror and the grace of Elohim. But for now you are the blind attempting to lead the blind yet even the partially blind see well enough to know not to follow your doctrines. :chuckle:
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You are hostile towards God and his Son Jesus Christ. Your religion whatever it is, has made you that way.
beloved57
Well-known member
You the one that doesn't believe the Gospel! You are hostile towards it!
I have shared what I have from the Scripture, even Paul, and you clearly do not even believe all that Paul writes. How can you claim to have the Gospel to share with others, even the supposed Gospel of Paul, when you yourself refuse to mortify your own "members" of your own "household" upon your own "earth" as Paul exhorts you to do? You clearly have no understanding of the allegories and doctrines of Yeshua: if your right eye offends you, pluck him out, and cast him from you, and buy some gold tried in the fire from the Master, and anoint your eyes with eye salve so that you may see, (yes, that is correct, BUY, Revelation 3:18). Do you have money in the realm of the kingdom so as to buy anything from Messiah as he says? If not then I suppose you too are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, just as he warns Laodicea. :crackup:
ttruscott
Well-known member
This is a ridiculous contention and anyone who knows me knows how foolish it is. If you can't fight em with facts dazzle them with the bright stuff, eh?
How far out there can you get?? My whole thesis is that GOD did not create anyone a sinner nor to be a sinner nor to go to hell! Yet you have accused me of the opposite - well done but it won't fly.
So you claim that only your interpretation is the truth... riiiiight, got that. But I do not stand on my interpretation of the bible only at all but on the indwelling Holy Spirit you seem to not have met yet as shown by the twisted mess you are making of this topic.
Sorry but it is indeed based upon sectarian reasoning to support a church bias in the interpretation. It is your pride that pushes you to assert that your INTERPRETATION is indeed the very word of GOD.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Who needs to quote the most obvious scripture in the Bible??? But since you have a deficient learning, here you go:
GOD is love: 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
love is patient: 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient,
love never harms: Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor.
Therefore GOD of perfect loving patience will never give up on anyone. If you are HIS, Deuteronomy 31:6 “Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” Therefore if everyone is HIS, then they will all be saved and your claim that He indeed does leave and forsake them for no written reason is confounded! So I repeat: If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.
Neither will a GOD of perfect loving patience ever create a person knowing the person would end in hell nor would HE create a person in sin or in Adam's sin and so condemned already to go to hell.
My verses are just as GODly as your un-quoted verses are while my interpretation of them in full favour of HIS holy loving kindness is superior to your sectarianism.
Can't say I do not remember your screen name from a certain unnamed Messianic Judaism forum; and how is your friend Dr. A. F. doing? Well and good I hope. However it is peculiar how those such as yourselves account the Law, for yourselves, as having been "rendered completely ineffectual/idle", that is, for yourselves; but when it comes to the 99% of the rest of humanity they die "unsaved" according to your "new covenant" rules.
:think:
I'll pass . . .
ttruscott
Well-known member
While it is true that the reprobate vastly outnumber the few sinful elect whose redemption is the whole reason for our lives here on earth, the total of humanity (sinners born on earth) comes nowhere near to the vast number of those who have chosen holiness by their free will, who have never sinned and now work as messengers for GOD in the heavens.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Excuse me Robert but you and B57 are probably the same person with schizophrenia...
iouae
Well-known member
Christian maths works as follows..
John 15:5 ... without me ye can do nothing.
Worshiping Baal is doing something
Therefore if you can do nothing without Christ, he must be enabling you in your worship of Baal.
Sounds crazy, but some Christians interpret the word as if they were doing maths.
And the words which trip them up are the "all" or "nothing" words.
John 15:5 ... without me ye can do nothing.
Worshiping Baal is doing something
Therefore if you can do nothing without Christ, he must be enabling you in your worship of Baal.
Sounds crazy, but some Christians interpret the word as if they were doing maths.
And the words which trip them up are the "all" or "nothing" words.
beloved57
Well-known member
Gods Love is specifically in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you and i were not Chosen by God in Christ before the foundation, God isnt Love to us, we would be outside of His Love, objects of His hate ! Ps 5:5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
So you need to be very careful on how you quote that verse about God being love, you can be doing it in a flippant and God dishonoring manner !
How about this? "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe that scripture!You are in unbelief!
Shasta
Well-known member
God who told us to love our enemies, also loves His enemies. In fact anyone who is currently reconciled to God at one time in the past was His enemy (Colossians 1:21-22). God does not rejoice when people are brought to judgment but prefers that they repent and be saved (Ezekiel 18:23).
This disposition is revealed also in the OT:
…10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" (Jonah 4:10-11)
Here God states His motive for wanting to save Nineveh. God sent Jonah because He had compassion on the vast numbers of people who did not know Him, those whose idolatry and immorality made them His enemies. God had compassion upon their children as well ("those who did not know their right hand from their left") who were not able to exercise any moral judgment. God even had compassion on their animals, many of which would have been slaughtered in the overthrow of Nineveh.
When James and John wanted to call fire down and destroy those who would not receive Jesus, the Master rebuked them saying, “"You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;… (Luke 9:53-55). The same could be said to anyone who delights in judgment over mercy.
beloved57
Well-known member
I dont know what god you believe in, its not the God of the Scripture !