God did not chose Jacob over Esau because of their works, but purely on election.
ECT Does 'fulfilled prophecy' reinforce the Bible?
- Thread starter Interplanner
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God's Truth
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
The promises are to Abraham's children---those of blood and those of faith.
To whom do you believe are the promises?
Nope.
Scripture plainly says that Jacob was chosen over Esau before either of them did anything right or wrong.
Romans 9 KJV(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Did you catch that?
Not of works, but purely by God's election.
God knew what each child would grow up to do.
Are you kidding?
God did not have to pick the first born Esau because he was the first born!
God says His ways are not our ways, for we pick the first born, but god does not consider such things about humans.
Oh?
If flesh counted for nothing, then Jesus did not have to be a descendant from the flesh loins of David.
Acts 2 KJV
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Romans 1 KJV
(3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Romans 1 KJV
(3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Learn to read what all is written.
And yet, work away your sins, you feel you must continually work at, in your own strength.
You are welcome to your view until fully persuaded otherwise, just know that in mine, GT shall regrettably continue to be short for "Gerbils' Treadmill."
Knowing every work that both children ever did would be irrelevant to why God chose Israel.
The scripture says Jacob was chosen by election, not works.
I never said otherwise.
The order of their births had no more to do with it than their works did.
God will perform His oaths, not for Israel's sake, but for His own holy name's sake.
Ez. 36:21-34 KJV
But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
Interplanner
Well-known member
re your comment: Which is why it is so important to see how the NT uses the OT. There is no NT place (in fact, Hebrews would be the opposite) where this kind of thing is seen as God really being true. HE IS REALLY TRUE IN THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FOR SINFUL MANKIND! Acts 13:32. Preached in a remote synagogue! So, today in our hearing (too), the Scripture is fulfilled; today is the time of grace, the day of salvation. There is nothing God needs to 'prove' and there is nothing in the NT about it being done by re-Judaism.
God's Truth
New member
You do not even get the name right.
You mean, why God choose 'Jacob'.
Not works of the LAW, i. e. circumcision.
The order of their birth is important because it teaches about things of man, and THINGS OF GOD.
You saying the birth order does not matter shows you do not have understanding.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus' words are SPIRIT.
Obeying Jesus' words gives the SPIRIT.
John 6:63 The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.
ClimateSanity
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I don't see much spirit watching a gerbil run on his wheel.
God's Truth
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You are arguing about God's written Word.
Jesus is the one who says the flesh counts for nothing.
You miss Jesus' teaching.
ClimateSanity
New member
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ClimateSanity
New member
Works of the law = circumcision regarding Jacob and Esau? They were both circumcised. Esau tried to work for his being chosen. He went out and provided venison for Isaac. Jacob was sneaky...he pretended to be Esau by putting fake hair on his body because Isaac was nearly blind. That isn't exactly what a good Christian man would do, and yet who got the blessing???
The one who did no work at all, in fact, he was disobedient to the moral law.
The one who did no work at all, in fact, he was disobedient to the moral law.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Actually Tambora has swerved into something that matters here, but it is difficult to understand people NOT seeing the significance of what they are saying about Christ. Tambora doesn't seem to realize that this feature WAS fulfilled in Christ the seed of David, and thinks the logic is that if Christ was actually that descendancy then it goes forward into the future and really matters. The NT does not say that. It says that the kind of fulfillment in Christ was the target and terminal of it all. For what he did is then offered to the whole world.
It is fascinating in Acts 13's sermon to see that Isaiah is quoted as shifting David's promises to the Servant (Christ) and then shortly after that Paul points out that David did fufill the purpose God had for him IN HIS OWN GENERATION. So if that short-term thing was fulfilled, why go back to it after the official reading of Isaiah by Paul?
God's Truth
New member
Jacob fought for the inheritance, and that is what we have to do if we want to be saved, we have to get violent about it, fight for it, as if our lives depend upon it.
Mathew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.
God's Truth
New member
God choosing Jacob is about the Gentiles being able to be saved too. It is about God knowing ahead of time who would love Him.
God's Truth
New member
Could you elaborate more, because I feel as if there is something Tambora and you have been discussing that I do not know about. Is this about Tambora believing Jesus did not fulfill what Jesus came to do and now has to come back again to finish some things that were not finished the first time? If that is what you mean, then you made an excellent point that cannot be denied.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Tamb said this up above:
Oh?
If flesh counted for nothing, then Jesus did not have to be a descendant from the flesh loins of David.
Response: yes he did have to be a descendant of David, but what he did in the Gospel is a complete fulfillment of what was expected. Yet most of the people/authors I know never think of the Gospel as having anything to do with acting as David's seed. Instead it's about 'salvation.' And the two realms have nothing to do with each other. That's not how Rom 1 and Acts 2 and 13 read.
Oh?
If flesh counted for nothing, then Jesus did not have to be a descendant from the flesh loins of David.
Response: yes he did have to be a descendant of David, but what he did in the Gospel is a complete fulfillment of what was expected. Yet most of the people/authors I know never think of the Gospel as having anything to do with acting as David's seed. Instead it's about 'salvation.' And the two realms have nothing to do with each other. That's not how Rom 1 and Acts 2 and 13 read.
God's Truth
New member
I did not know people did not understand that Jesus is the promised Savior to David and that it was fulfilled, as stated in the scriptures.
Interplanner
Well-known member
People who believe in 2P2P minimize what happened in Christ. The 'real' fulfillment, they say, is yet to come and is Davidic/Judaistic and must take place in Judea.