Does fulfilled mean abolished? No.

CabinetMaker

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I do not know what you are talking about. I do not know what to say for those who have no herd.
How can you not know what I am talking about? Its simple, you have one thread in which you claim that Jews and Israel must follow all 613 laws.
[h=2]Shalom. The 613 Commandments of the Torah should be observed by Jews, Israel. [/h]That's a link, just click on it and it will take you to your thread if you need to refresh your memory.

Then you have this thread where you claim that Jews and Israel do not need to follow all 613 laws.
I do not have either a herd nor grain.

Without a temple we keep the Commandments that are to be kept without a temple. The 613 Commandments of the Torah are for Israel to keep. We hope for and intend to build a temple once again.

So I am very curios as to which of your two mutually exclusive positions is correct.
 

Jacob

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Jesus said this:

Matthew 15:24 NRSA
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrsa/matthew/15-24.html
24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And He sent the Apostles into all the world, granting them authority, which they used to declare that believers of Gentile origin are not required to obey the Law.
Very well. It is not that the commandments were taught against.

See Matthew 10 and Luke 10:1-24.
 

Jacob

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How can you not know what I am talking about? Its simple, you have one thread in which you claim that Jews and Israel must follow all 613 laws.
[h=2]Shalom. The 613 Commandments of the Torah should be observed by Jews, Israel. [/h]That's a link, just click on it and it will take you to your thread if you need to refresh your memory.

Then you have this thread where you claim that Jews and Israel do not need to follow all 613 laws.


So I am very curios as to which of your two mutually exclusive positions is correct.
I do not say that Jews and Israel do not need to follow all 613 laws. I believe that you are confused about that. Indeed Jesus taught that we keep and teach the Commandments.
 

Danoh

New member
Yes that's right, the Holy Spirit should be writing the laws upon the hearts and in the minds of those born of God. Those born of God should now be circumcised spiritually of the heart, obeying God and living by his will as Christ Jesus did, his way is the only way to God and those who truly follow him live by his teachings, loving God with all their hearts and their neighbour as themselves, as these are the two commandments that all the law and the prophets hang upon. If we follow these two commandments from the heart then we'll fulfil the laws.

Romans 3

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

That is not...what Romans 3:31 is talking about.

What the Apostle Paul is asserting is that the law or Principe of faith, ALSO proves what the Law proved.

This here...

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

He repeats that again, in Romans 7, and in his relating when he withstood Peter to his face, in Galatians 2, and so on...

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards you, in memory of Rom. 5:6-8.
 

CabinetMaker

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I do not say that Jews and Israel do not need to follow all 613 laws. I believe that you are confused about that. Indeed Jesus taught that we keep and teach the Commandments.

Look at my post again. I quoted YOUR WORDS from both threads. I need you to explain the dichotomy.
 

CabinetMaker

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You said

Then you have this thread where you claim that Jews and Israel do not need to follow all 613 laws.

And that is incorrect.

I quoted your words. Here they are again for you:
I do not have either a herd nor grain.

Without a temple we keep the Commandments that are to be kept without a temple. The 613 Commandments of the Torah are for Israel to keep. We hope for and intend to build a temple once again.

We know that you cannot keep the laws requiring burnt offerings because a)you don't have herds, b0you don't have crops and c) you don't have a temple at which to make the sacrifice. So, by your own admission (see the text highlighted in yellow), you cannot keep all of the laws.

All you are saying is that you have to keep all 613 laws except for the ones you can't keep with out a temple. Do you see the flaw in your statements yet?
 

Jacob

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I quoted your words. Here they are again for you:

We know that you cannot keep the laws requiring burnt offerings because a)you don't have herds, b0you don't have crops and c) you don't have a temple at which to make the sacrifice. So, by your own admission (see the text highlighted in yellow), you cannot keep all of the laws.

All you are saying is that you have to keep all 613 laws except for the ones you can't keep with out a temple. Do you see the flaw in your statements yet?
No.

The question is if we are going to or should build a temple again. I believe yes.
 

CabinetMaker

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No.

The question is if we are going to or should build a temple again. I believe yes.
That doesn't really help your position. Until that new temple is built, every Jew that is alive today or has ever lived since the destruction of the temple, has died with many unatoned sins counted against them. What of them?
 

Jacob

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That doesn't really help your position. Until that new temple is built, every Jew that is alive today or has ever lived since the destruction of the temple, has died with many unatoned sins counted against them. What of them?
What did we do during the Babylonian captivity before we built the second temple?
 

TestedandTried

New member
Does fulfilled mean abolished? No.

The Torah and the Nevi'im have not been abolished. The Law and the Prophets have not been abolished.

We fulfill or uphold the Law through love: Love of God and Love of our fellowman. See Romans 3:20-21; Romans 13:8-10;
Romans 3:31:
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
So that what has changed in reality is the manner of which we fulfill the Law...Love and the Spirit.
 

CabinetMaker

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What did we do during the Babylonian captivity before we built the second temple?

That really doesn't address the question I asked, merely defers it. It should also be noted that God had not sent His Son during the Babylonian captivity. That makes the circumstances rather different between then and now.
 

Jacob

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We fulfill or uphold the Law through love: Love of God and Love of our fellowman. See Romans 3:20-21; Romans 13:8-10;
Romans 3:31:
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
So that what has changed in reality is the manner of which we fulfill the Law...Love and the Spirit.
You are saying that the way in which we fulfill the Law is Love and the Spirit. I cannot confirm this for you. However, read Romans 8:1-4.
 

Jacob

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That really doesn't address the question I asked, merely defers it. It should also be noted that God had not sent His Son during the Babylonian captivity. That makes the circumstances rather different between then and now.
Jesus lived during the time of the second temple. The Law is not any different now, found in the Torah. When you know that there is something that you should do in the Torah, like with me building the temple, you should do it. There is nothing that keeps me from having a herd or grain, except that I do not have an income and I am more of a scribe or in the temple of God.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Does fulfilled mean abolished? No.

The Torah and the Nevi'im have not been abolished. The Law and the Prophets have not been abolished.

Are you speaking of the statement from Matthew 5:17?

If so, that is not "fulfilled" in the sense that some like to believe, ("abolished"), but rather to fully or completely fill something up: to literally cram something full, (like a fishing net "stuffed" full of fish), to level up something that is not quite full or in a somewhat hollow state, to fully supply, to satisfy, execute, (a duty or an office), to verify, (or coincide with a prediction), to confirm, to accomplish, to complete or make complete, to fill up, (and it is in that sense to "fully fill" or "fulfill"), to make full, even to fully preach, or to perfect something, to fully furnish or supply.

That certainly does not mean "abolish" in any sense of the word. Nope, and rather instead, the Torah is fully expounded by the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts, (and the Apocalypse), or at least everything we need to know to understand how to walk the Torah in the Spirit of the Testimony of the Master, (which is opposed to "the works of the law", (an idiomatic term used by Paul to describe the old-time carnal and physical minded interpretations of the Torah)).

One may indeed walk all of the Torah by the supernal understanding that every disciple of the Master is the true temple of Elohim. If you have Meshiah then you have what you need to offer up every ascending offering mentioned in the Torah, (not "burnt offerings" but "ascending offerings", (which concern prayer as opposed to literally physically slaying the innocent living creatures of Elohim and draining their blood)). It all comes down to your interpretation of the Torah, (and your understanding of the Prophets and Writings with respect to the Torah and the Testimony of the Master), and the Master "fills up" the understanding of all necessary things for his disciples in the Gospel accounts, (and the Apocalypse).
 

Jacob

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Are you speaking of the statement from Matthew 5:17?

If so, that is not "fulfilled" in the sense that some like to believe, ("abolished"), but rather to fully or completely fill something up: to literally cram something full, (like a fishing net "stuffed" full of fish), to level up something that is not quite full or in a somewhat hollow state, to fully supply, to satisfy, execute, (a duty or an office), to verify, (or coincide with a prediction), to confirm, to accomplish, to complete or make complete, to fill up, (and it is in that sense to "fully fill" or "fulfill"), to make full, even to fully preach, or to perfect something, to fully furnish or supply.

That certainly does not mean "abolish" in any sense of the word. Nope, and rather instead, the Torah is fully expounded by the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts, (and the Apocalypse), or at least everything we need to know to understand how to walk the Torah in the Spirit of the Testimony of the Master, (which is opposed to "the works of the law", (an idiomatic term used by Paul to describe the old-time carnal and physical minded interpretations of the Torah)).

One may indeed walk all of the Torah by the supernal understanding that every disciple of the Master is the true temple of Elohim. If you have Meshiah then you have what you need to offer up every ascending offering mentioned in the Torah, (not "burnt offerings" but "ascending offerings", (which concern prayer as opposed to literally physically slaying the innocent living creatures of Elohim and draining their blood)). It all comes down to your interpretation of the Torah, (and your understanding of the Prophets and Writings with respect to the Torah and the Testimony of the Master), and the Master "fills up" the understanding of all necessary things for his disciples in the Gospel accounts, (and the Apocalypse).
I do not know what you are speaking about. Many of the things that you are speaking about do not make sense to me. I am okay with that. You can learn the truth and discard that which is not true.
 

daqq

Well-known member
I do not know what you are speaking about. Many of the things that you are speaking about do not make sense to me. I am okay with that. You can learn the truth and discard that which is not true.

If you are not so familiar with the Testimony of Meshiah and his apostles you can still learn the truth from passages like Isa 1:11,12,13,14,15, Isa 66:1,2,3,4,5,6,7, Jer 7:21,22,23, and many Psalms which tell us what the sacrifices in the Torah actually pertain to, (they are not intended to satisfy a desire of the belly for the roasted flesh of the innocent living creatures of Elohim).
 

Jacob

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If you are not so familiar with the Testimony of Meshiah and his apostles you can still learn the truth from passages like Isa 1:11,12,13,14,15, Isa 66:1,2,3,4,5,6,7, Jer 7:21,22,23, and many Psalms which tell us what the sacrifices in the Torah actually pertain to, (they are not intended to satisfy a desire of the belly for the roasted flesh of the innocent living creatures of Elohim).
I do not understand what you said here.
 
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