Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Rosenritter

New member
One being incorruptible doesn't mean they won't see judgement it just means they will not be destroyed and will return to GOD. All scripture speaks of a single judgement at the second coming of the Christ. That's it as far as I know. If I'm wrong, which I could be, then I would appreciate actual biblical references that I might find my error and correct it.

Thank you,

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Look in Revelation 19 and 20. "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which is preceded by the saints of God living and ruling with Christ for 1000 years. The dead in Christ have been raised and made incorruptible, therefore it follows that their judgment must have already occurred. I admit it doesn't speak much in this regard, but what is there to be spoken of? If we are already in Christ then our sins are forgiven and we are in him it isn't a scary prospect nor something to worry about.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Apparently, AMR believes he has me figured out...

I believe God to be totally logical in every aspect...

I wonder how many posters on TOL have actually read the entire Bible ...

Calvinists believe humanity cannot choose to place their faith in Christ as their Savior...

A Cult is a Cult no matter how old it is...

Like I said....when cornered just ramble on and on poisoning the well and hoping no one will notice how desperate one has become. Arminians. Sigh.

Q.E.D.

AMR
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Do you mean the depravity of man which makes him unable to place his faith in Christ? Well, that's not true.

Men cursed by God have no spiritual capacity to escape their curse.

Only the cross of Christ removes that mark from the souls of men. It takes forensic justification to escape the curse of God (the sentence of the second death). Jesus Christ alone paid this price so that His children could escape this death sentence.

Justification is not accursed sinners making a right choice. Justification is nothing less than Jesus Christ becoming a curse on mens' behalf through His death in their stead. Romans 6:23
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Do you mean the depravity of man which makes him unable to place his faith in Christ? Well, that's not true.

As usual just more of your own opinions. Point me to your best example of actually having expended the effort to mount a substantive argument for your naked assertions on any matter of doctrine. Posting your unsubstantiated opinions all day long is but using a discussion site for your personal blogging of streams of consciousness. You have your reward. You have been seen and duly noted to be a man with plenty of opinions.

The thing about opinions is that most think they are entitled to them. But if ‘entitled to an opinion’ means ‘entitled to have your views treated as serious candidates for the truth’ then such an entitlement claim clearly false until one's opinions are backed up by some actual argumentation. Why should I or anyone else take your opinion seriously? What have you to offer in support of your opinion? To date it seems to be just a curmudgeonly Arminian man sitting around wasting time with a computer posting random thoughts about this or that. That behavior is just poor stewardship of the time God has granted you for leisurely activities.

Show me an example or two wherein you have actually taken 1 Peter 3:15 seriously. Can you do it?

AMR
 

Rosenritter

New member
Mar 10:21-23 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
(23) And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

God doesn't always get everything he wants. God can love someone and that person may not exhibit faith and may not be willing to enter the kingdom of God.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
God doesn't always get everything he wants.
May God forgive me for once making the same statement while ignoring the anthropopathisms required in Scripture as He lisps to His children, just as parents baby-talk to their children, in accommodation to their finitude.

There are no unfulfilled desires in God. He accomplishes all that He wills to do. Scripture says that God does whatsoever pleases Him, that what He desires He does, that He will do all His pleasure, that His Word shall accomplish what He pleases, that He works all things after the counsel of His own will.

The plain facts are that if it is not accomplished, then God did not will it to be so.

AMR
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
May God forgive me for once making the same statement while ignoring the anthropopathisms required in Scripture as He lisps to His children, just as parents baby-talk to their children, in accommodation to their finitude.

There are no unfulfilled desires in God. He accomplishes all that He wills to do. Scripture says that God does whatsoever pleases Him, that what He desires He does, that He will do all His pleasure, that His Word shall accomplish what He pleases, that He works all things after the counsel of His own will.

The plain facts are that if it is not accomplished, then God did not will it to be so.

AMR

So when Jeffery Dahmer accomplished the sodomizing rape, murder, dismemberment and cannibalizing of 18 boys and men, that was God's will?

Is that what you really believe?

Don't be scared to say it.

Actually, on the other hand, maybe you should be scared to say it! :shocked:

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
So when Jeffery Dahmer accomplished the sodomizing rape, murder, dismemberment and cannibalizing of 18 boys and men, that was God's will?

Is that what you really believe?

Don't be scared to say it.

Actually, on the other hand, maybe you should be scared to say it! :shocked:

Resting in Him,
Clete


You merely attempt to blame God for the sins of reprobates.

Not wise . . .

Their evil deeds are the natural consequence of their cursed condition.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
[Calvin] was culpable for the murder executions of over fifty some human beings.

Not quite sure what a murder execution is.

If he killed someone without due process then it would be murder. If one were killed on the basis of being found guilty of a capital crime it would be an execution. But that would be a function of the state, not Calvin. Do you know of any of these 50 plus persons who were not found guilty of a capital crime?
 

musterion

Well-known member
That arrogant sinner in a persistent vegetative state refuses to accept the 100% guaranteed brain cure I offered him. I guess he can continue to rot away and die, since that's what he evidently wants.

Don't say the analogy doesn't work. You know it does.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
That arrogant sinner in a persistent vegetative state refuses to accept the 100% guaranteed brain cure I offered him. I guess he can continue to rot away and die, since that's what he evidently wants.

Don't say the analogy doesn't work. You know it does.
Not to mention that according to Calvinism, GOD is the one that decreed that sinner to be in a perpetual vegetative state in the first place.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Not quite sure what a murder execution is.

If he killed someone without due process then it would be murder. If one were killed on the basis of being found guilty of a capital crime it would be an execution. But that would be a function of the state, not Calvin. Do you know of any of these 50 plus persons who were not found guilty of a capital crime?

How about falling asleep during one of his sermons.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Nick Vujicic was offered a free set of fully functioning bionic arms and legs. All he had to do was reach down and pick them up, and they would be attached free. He refused, so to Hell with him.

(another apt Augustinian analogy)
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Not to mention that according to Calvinism, GOD is the one that decreed that sinner to be in a perpetual vegetative state in the first place.

This would be true if God had not gifted Adam with moral agency to cause and effect his immediate surroundings according to the protection of divine commands (Law), as well as warning Adam of the consequences of disobedience to that Law.

God ordained and created Adam a conscientious and accountable creature; made to be responsible for representing the entire human race.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Try holding those two propositions in your mind at the same time. If you're sane, you can't do it.

Easy . .

All sinners are held responsible for their sins against God, but only God can redeem and justify them; providing the pardon for their sins.

Only an insane reprobate would fail to comprehend these Gospel truths.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
This would be true if God had not gifted Adam with moral agency to cause and effect his immediate surroundings according to the protection of divine commands (Law), as well as warning Adam of the consequences of disobedience to that Law.

God ordained and created Adam a conscientious and accountable creature; made to be responsible for representing the entire human race.
Those that deny the federal headship of Adam and the results of his fall in the garden usually fall into all manner of error afterwards. We all sinned with Adam just as if we were there in the garden, hence all are morally stillborn if and until God acts upon them (Eze. 36:26).

See the results of such a denial in detail here: http://goo.gl/nlcfMp

AMR
 
Last edited:

Rosenritter

New member
I'm not sure about restoration. But universal reconciliation is a belief I hold based on the writings of the bible and other core religious texts, as is the belief that GOD is all knowing. Neither of them lean on the other or are required for the other as far as I am concerned. To be completely honest; through revelation it was made obvious that GOD is all knowing and coincidence/ chance is not an actual real thing. The same cannot be said for universal reconciliation; though it is supported by nearly all texts I have read, it wasn't made apparent through the initial help and guidance I was given.

So I guess if one had to be chosen to be of more significance or truth, it would have to be the belief that all is ultimately ordained by GOD.

Hope that helps

Could you explain the significance of your question please?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

First I offer the disclaimer that I am not sure what you perceive as the difference between Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, and Universalism. That said, I'll do my best to explain. I was weighing your reaction against a related topic.

Most Calvinists that I have met (or read) are staunch defenders of Eternal Conscious Torment. I have met the one or two that uphold the literal destruction of the wicked to ashes, which does lessen the whole injustice angle that this thread is discussing, because at least then God shows man the same consideration as every other created creature, the mercy inherent in death. God created cattle with no other options than to graze and live and die, but he does not torture 90% of the cattle over a never-ending barbecue because He chose to be offended by the way He made them.

Now with the disclaimer that I consider Calvinism to be a massive twisting of the scripture and against the whole gospel, I think that if it was followed consistently that it would lead to Universalism... or perhaps as you would say, Universal Restoration. It does clearly say that God is willing that all men should repent and come to a knowledge of the truth, that God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to eternal life, that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If Calvinism is true and God can and will make anything and everything happen as he prefers best, then the only logical outcome for the Calvinist is that of Universal Restoration. God wants all to be saved. Ergo, all will be saved. So the consistent Calvinist becomes a believer in Universal Restoration.

However, I have also noticed in my observation of Universalist forums that pretty much all of them seem to embrace the denial of free will aspect that (to me) defines Calvinism. I think that the Universalist has no other option, because if God did create man with free will, then that free will (by definition) could be used to reject his creator. The Universalist says that no one can for ever reject the Creator, so therefore free will must be an illusion. So the philosophical Univeralist must essentially adopt Calvinism and the denial of free will.

As to which is the cause and which is the effect, I suppose it depends on the person. So I was wondering as to your personal experience and perspective, which element was the foundation and which was built on top of the other. The application would be as follows: assuming your faith was biblical, would biblical evidence against Universal Reconciliation leave your Calvinism intact? Or what if the hypothetical situation were reversed, and you were persuaded that not all things were yet determined... would this still allow for faith in Universal Reconciliation?

Like I said earlier, even if I do not agree I at least appreciate your consistency.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Not quite sure what a murder execution is.

If he killed someone without due process then it would be murder. If one were killed on the basis of being found guilty of a capital crime it would be an execution. But that would be a function of the state, not Calvin. Do you know of any of these 50 plus persons who were not found guilty of a capital crime?

I know of someone that Calvin had burned at the stake for the crime of privately disagreeing with him and having the audacity to come to visit him in Geneva.
 
Top