Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Angel4Truth]

Your answer above means that you believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born.

How you can claim that you have faith in a God that would do such a thing is a mystery.

He already knows what you will choose. Thats how. He already knows the end from the beginning.

Ephesians 4:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,…

Does it not stand to reason that along with those He knows will have life, he also knows those who will have death?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes.

I use the poll results as an "add to ignore list" tool. Avoids wasting time discussing things with someone already too far gone. My ignore list used to be quite large, but I decided that deniers of the Trinity, in other words, non-Christians, is the most effective means of avoiding time wasting discussions on all the other oddities such persons also carry around as baggage. Would be nice to have a rule that all members must vote in the Trinity poll. That would really help weeding out who is worth engaging and who is generally not.

AMR

Do you believe it impossible for someone who doesn't understand the Trinity to be saved before understanding it?

New believers, etc..?

 

[Eagles Wings]

Ive seen many a Calvinist assert that the very doctrine of election the way they see it is the very gospel itself (b57 and nang here as well as a couple others that have come and gone here (as well as those i know in life offline) for example come to mind) both have declared me unsaved because i do not believe the Calvinist position that the gospel of salvation is only offered to some.

I agree all will not be saved, but because they refuse the offer that all men are offered. I believe God draws all, like it says He does and if He did not, then He would have told many lies and God does not lie.

As a Calvinist, I am careful NOT to judge the election of another. I do not believe it is right to do so. As I get older, and eternal life with Christ is within a couple of decades or so, I spend more time rejoicing in one who professes/confesses, Christ's atonement for their sin. That is a joy!

 

[Angel4Truth]

Romans 12:3 : For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

 

[Angel4Truth]

As a Calvinist, I am careful NOT to judge the election of another. I do not believe it is right to do so. As I get older, and eternal life with Christ is within a couple of decades or so, I spend more time rejoicing in one who professes/confesses, Christ's atonement for their sin. That is a joy!

Amen!

 

[Angel4Truth]

No one goes to hell to pay for their sins, they go for rejecting the payment made for them.

Do tell on that basis, how one believes they finish what He did, it was already finished before they were drawn and either received or rejected what was already finished. How does having an ability to love Him back, finish his work?

Seems you dont understand what others believe.

 

[Ktoyou]

Yes, it is like saying the refused the free ticket and did not get on the bus.

 

[Angel4Truth]

There is no logical extension here. Not all born infants or all unborn or miscarried are elect. Some are, some are not. Life begins at conception. The soul exists at that moment. Body and soul are a person. Elect human beings are persons marked out by God for His own good pleasure and without consideration of any foreseen merit in the person. Christian parents of all these, the unborn, the born, or the miscarried, have a warrant to hope, not a demand, that said persons who die are among the elect.

Here is another spot of disagreement, i believe there is an age/time of accountability, and an infant/miscarried child, has not reached it and have had no opportunity to be witnessed to in understanding to be offered the gospel of salvation (just like someone whose mental capacity isnt there)

Jesus said: John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Stands to logical reason here, until one knows what sin is, what its remedy is, they cannot be held accountable for it, it goes against Gods nature. No infant can willfully sin.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes, it is like saying the refused the free ticket and did not get on the bus.

Exactly which in no way diminishes that the ticket was paid for already whether it was used or not. Payment was made.

 

[Ktoyou]

:up:

 

[Nang]

The core of the Gospel message is not whether a sinner is saved by the exercise of his will, but that Jesus Christ, through His death and imputation of righteousness to His elect, as the last "Adam" has restored the corrupted human nature.

He can extend this grace upon a fetus, and an infant, as well as adults. There is no salvation "offered" contingent upon human choice of any age, but rather salvation is promised through grace that changes the corrupted human condition (including the will) that all persons have inherited from the first and fallen Adam.

Romans 5:12-21

 

[Rosenritter]

So you teach that men Christ died for, God sees them in Christ complete and perfect, wind up losing their perfection in Christ ! So you teach a saved perfect man in Christ can loose his salvation, and yet you criticize others who believe men lose their salvation, thats being a hypocrite !

So those words you spoke, the description, where are those words in the Bible?

 

[Rosenritter]

Invalid comments and rabbit trail !

It's a "rabbit trail" to point out that the entire Calvinist foundation is completely absent from scripture???

 

[Angel4Truth]

So you teach that men Christ died for, God sees them in Christ complete and perfect, wind up losing their perfection in Christ ! So you teach a saved perfect man in Christ can loose his salvation, and yet you criticize others who believe men lose their salvation, thats being a hypocrite !

I actually agree with you here, salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Rosenritter]

Marhig



Who says being reconciled to God doesn't mean being eternally saved ? Show me the scripture that says that!

Actually, it's your job to show that being once reconciled to God means you are "eternally saved." You can't expect someone to prove a negative. And before you try that, I'll warn you that Ezekiel, again, is going to contradict your conclusion before you even start. The righteous man that turns from his ways shall meet death just like the wicked, it says.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The core of the Gospel message is not whether a sinner is saved by the exercise of his will, but that Jesus Christ, through His death and imputation of righteousness to His elect, as the last "Adam" has restored the corrupted human nature.

He can extend this grace upon a fetus, and an infant, as well as adults. There is no salvation "offered" contingent upon human choice of any age, but rather salvation is promised through grace that changes the corrupted human condition (including the will) that all persons have inherited from the first and fallen Adam.

Romans 5:12-21

The problem with your "logic" is, you believe that Christ ONLY died for the sins of the "Chosen Elect" and not the sins of the entire world of sinners. Because He died for the sins of all humanity, anyone who hears the Gospel and places their ENTIRE faith in Christ as their Savior can reap the benefits.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hey, Nang, how can a baby or an infant change his/her will? How can a baby/infant hear the Gospel and respond? How can a baby/infant sin? Calvinists believe that if a baby/infant is of the "Chosen Elect" and they should die, they'll spend eternity with God. However, if that same baby/infant isn't of the "Chosen Elect" they will suffer in the Lake of Fire "Hell" for eternity. That's not within the character and intent of the God of the Bible. Although, John Calvin, and his ilk had that mindset. That's who that horrendous belief began with.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

B57 and Nanja are "Hyper-Calvinists" therefore, they believe God creates all sin.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Hey, Nang, how can a baby or an infant change his/her will? How can a baby/infant hear the Gospel and respond? How can a baby/infant sin? Calvinists believe that if a baby/infant is of the "Chosen Elect" and they should die, they'll spend eternity with God. However, if that same baby/infant isn't of the "Chosen Elect" they will suffer in the Lake of Fire "Hell" for eternity. That's not within the character and intent of the God of the Bible. Although, John Calvin, and his ilk had that mindset. That's who that horrendous belief began with.

well and there is this:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.…

How can an infant or a miscarried child have faith and respond to the gospel of grace?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists believe that the Elect must first be regenerated before they can receive "Saving faith." That's the old "Cart before the Horse" idea. In reality, one must first hear the Gospel, then, accept or reject placing their faith in Christ. God gave us all, free will. Calvinists don't believe that. They believe that humanity is so corrupt, they don't want anything to do with God's offer of eternal life. Besides, the Calvinists will tell you, "God chose the Elect before the foundation of the world, thereby, choosing the rest for eternal damnation in Hell.