Does Calvinism limit God?
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John Reformed
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Re: What is my source...
Re: What is my source...
I suppose these 2 scholars were never exposed to Plato:chuckle:
Re: What is my source...
I suppose these 2 scholars were never exposed to Plato:chuckle:
Compare the Greek philosopher teachings/quotes in context with some of Augustine's ideas (e.g. understanding of 'eternal now'). Objectively, he was influenced by the philosophies he studied. This does not mean that he did not contribute valuable insights, but he was not infallible or exhaustive on every area of truth.
John Reformed
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Were the ancients wrong about everything? But.. perhaps it would be best if you to point to a paritcular view Of Plato's that led poor Calvin astray.
God_Is_Truth
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Plato said that something can only change for the better or the worse. that is wrong. something can change and be neither for the better or for the worse. that is a key fundamental error that followed through augustine and calvin.
Z Man
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However, God does not change for men. His job is not to please us or make sure that our will is accomplished; God is way more interested in making sure that His will is brought about. If God repents/changes, it's for Himself, not us. Everything that God does is for Himself. He is in the business of self-exaltation; not to make sure we live happy, safe, comfortable lives.
I'm sorry Z Man but this is just flatly wrong. Even if Calvinism is right, this would still be wrong.
God is Love.
I Cor. 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
I could go on forever! There is a verse on practically every page of the Bible about God doing something because He loves someone. Whether it's the nation of Israel, or the Body of Christ, or some individual, the whole story of the Bible is about how God humbled Himself for the express purpose of having a genuinely self sacrificial, love relationship with the crown jewel of His creation.
Resting in Him,
Clete
God_Is_Truth
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i agree that God doesn't change for men. but i believe that he does change in the sense of how he feels, thinks, works, acts etc. do you believe God changes in this way also?
and i also do not believe that God is here to make our lives great. he is definately here to bring glory to himself. although he does in fact make our lives great, but only after we come to him.
Why does it have to be either/or? It can be both/and with God's exaltation preeminent. He is the most valuable, worthy being in the universe and is not selfish to put His interests and glory first (we agree). Yet, as a responsible Creator, He cares about the sparrows and humanity and provides for their needs (this is explicit in Scripture - Mt. ). As we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, all other things will be added to us. We will be 'happy' (joy) as we partake in His holiness. We are promised persecutions and sufferings, yet we can have seasons of safety (Ps. 91) and comfort as blessings of God. God is not the only being in the universe. He has a plan and purpose for creation. Why does it have to mean we are miserable?
Greek philosophy postulated that a supreme being would be absolutely unchangeable in every sense. This false concept of immutability limits God and leads to an impersonal force. God is unchanging in His character and attributes. He is personal which entails the possibility of change in relations, will, intellect, and emotions.
Z Man
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Desiring God - by John Piper
Chapter 1: The Happiness Of God
The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.
The reason this may sound strange is that we are more accustomed to think about our duty than God's design. And when we do ask about God's design we are too prone to describe it with ourselves at the center of God's affections. We may say, for example, his design is to redeem the world. Or to save sinners. Or to restore creation. Or the like.
But God's saving designs are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These he performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment he has in glorifying himself.
If God were not infinitely devoted to the preservation, display, and enjoyment of his own glory, we could have no hope of finding happiness in him. But if he does in fact employ all his sovereign power and infinite wisdom to maximize the enjoyment of his own glory, then we have a foundation on which to stand and rejoice.
Is God for us or for Himself?
God does all things for his own sake. "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it . . . my glory I will not give to another."(Isaiah 48:11)
This is love, because in pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy.
God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the highest virtue and the most loving act.
If God is so utterly enamored of his own glory, how can he be a God of love? If he unwaveringly does all things for his own sake, how then can we have any hope that he will do anything for our sake? Does not the apostle say, "Love seeks not its own" ( 1 Corinthians 13: 5) ? Is God for us or for himself?
Is He Vain Or Loving To Command Our Praise?
The Bible is replete with commands to praise God. God commands it because this is the ultimate goal of all he does-"to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed" (2 Thessalonians 1:10). Three times in Ephesians 1 this great aim is proclaimed: God "predestined us in love to be his sons . . . to the praise of the glory of his grace!" ( 1:5-6); "We . . . have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (1:12); the Holy Spirit "is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" ( 1:14).
All the different ways God has chosen to display his glory in creation and redemption seem to reach their culmination in the praises of his redeemed people. God governs the world with glory precisely that he might be admired, marveled at, exalted and praised. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints.
But again and again I have found that people stumble over this truth. People do not like to hear that God is uppermost in his own affections, or that he does all things for his own glory, or that he exalts himself and seeks the praise of men.
Why? There are at least two reasons. One is that we just don't like people who are like that. The other is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. Let's examine these objections and see if they can apply to God.
Is God A Second-Hander?
First, we just don't like people who seem to be enamored by their own intelligence or strength or skill or good looks or wealth. We don't like scholars who try to show off their specialized knowledge, or who recite for us all their recent publications. We don't like businessmen who talk about how shrewdly they have invested their money and how they stayed right on top of the market to get in low and out high. We don't like children to play one-upmanship (Mine's bigger! Mine's faster! Mine's prettier!). And unless we are one of them, we disapprove of men and women who dress not functionally and simply, but to attract attention with the latest style.
Why don't we like all that? I think at root it's because those people are inauthentic. They are what Ayn Rand calls "second-handers." They don't live from the joy that comes through achieving what they value for its own sake. Instead, they live secondhand from the compliments of others. They have one eye on their action and one on their audience. We simply do not admire second-handers. We admire people who are secure and composed enough that they don't need to shore up their weaknesses and compensate for their deficiencies by trying to get compliments.
It stands to reason, then, that any teaching that puts God in the category of a second-hander will be unacceptable to Christians. And for many the teaching that God seeks to show off his glory and get the praise of men does in fact put him in the category of a second-hander. But should it?
One thing is certain: God is not weak and has no deficiencies. "All things are from him and through him and to him" (Romans 11:36). "He is not served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" ( Acts 17:25). Everything that exists owes its existence to him, and no one can add anything to him which is not already flowing from him. Therefore God's zeal to seek his own glory and to be praised by men cannot be owing to his need to shore up some weakness or compensate for some deficiency. He may look, at first glance, like one of the second-handers, but he is not like them, and the superficial similarity must be explained another way.
"Love Seeks Not Its Own" -- Except In The Joy Of Others.
The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator.
Ultimate self-denial would be idolatry in God.
By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy. And that is love.
The second reason people stumble over the teaching that God exalts his own glory and seeks to be praised by his people is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. For example, the Bible says that "Love seeks not its own" ( 1 Corinthians 13:5). How can God be loving and yet be utterly devoted to "seeking his own" glory and praise and joy? How can God be for us if he is so utterly for himself?
The answer I propose is this: Because God is unique as an all-glorious, totally self-sufficient Being, he must be for himself if he is to be for us. The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator. If God should turn away from himself as the Source of infinite joy, he would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of his own glory. He would imply that there is something more valuable outside himself. He would commit idolatry.
This would be no gain for us. For where can we go when our God has become unrighteous? Where will we find a Rock of integrity in the universe when the heart of God has ceased to value supremely the supremely valuable? Where shall we turn with our adoration when God himself has forsaken the claims of infinite worth and beauty?
No, we do not turn God's self-exaltation into love by demanding that God cease to be God. Instead we must come to see that God is love precisely because he relentlessly pursues the praises of his name in the hearts of his people.
Delight Is Incomplete Until It Is Expressed.
Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.
Now we are on the brink of what for me was a life-changing discovery. What do we all do when we are given or shown something beautiful or excellent? We praise it! We praise new little babies: "Oh, look at that nice round head! And all that hair! And her hands, aren't they perfect!" We praise a lover after a long absence: "Your eyes are like a cloudless sky! Your hair like forest silk!" We praise a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when we are down by three. We praise the October trees along the banks of the St. Croix.
But the great discovery for me, as I said, came when reading "A Word about Praise" in C. S. Lewis's Reflections on the Psalms. His recorded thoughts-born from wrestling with the idea that God not only wants our praise but commands it--bear looking at again, in fuller form:
There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise. If we were not allowed to speak of what we value, and celebrate what we love, and praise what we admire, our joy would not be full. So if God loves us enough to make our joy full, he must not only give us himself; he must also win from us the praise of our hearts-not because he needs to shore up some weakness in himself or compensate for some deficiency, but because he loves us and seeks the fullness of our joy that can be found only in knowing and praising him, the most magnificent of all Beings. If he is truly for us he must be for himself!
God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue. When he does all things ``for the praise of his glory," he preserves for us and offers to us the only thing in all the world which can satisfy our longings. God is for us! And the foundation of this love is that God has been, is now, and always will be, for himself.
Summary
The happiness of God in God is the foundation of our happiness in God.
If God did not joyfully uphold and display his glory the ground of our joy would be gone.
God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are in perfect harmony.
For God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.
God is absolutely sovereign. "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases!" (Psalm 115:3). Therefore he is not frustrated. He rejoices in all his works when he contemplates them as colors of the magnificent mosaic of redemptive history. He is an unshakably happy God.
His happiness is the delight he has in himself. Before creation he rejoiced in the image of his glory in the person of his Son. Then the joy of God "went public" in the works of creation and redemption. These works delight the heart of God because they reflect his glory. He does everything he does to preserve and display that glory, for in this his soul rejoices.
All the works of God culminate in the praises of his redeemed people. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints. This praise is the consummation of our own joy in God. Therefore God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are the same pursuit. This is the great gospel!
- taken from here
Z Man
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I wouldn't say that He necessarily changes, as if God goes through mood swings or anything. I don't believe that one day God is sad, and the next, happy, then the next day, angry. I believe that God has all those feelings at once. He is most displeased with sin and evil, yet most satisfied and happy in Himself and His glory all at the same time.
The same goes for His thoughts, works, and acts. God still works in peoples lives the same way He has for all time. He is the same God today that Abraham served thousands of years ago. Since God's ultimate purpose is to display His glory, His actions and thoughts are always constant. How He chooses to bring about His glory varies throughout time and people's lives, but the outcome is always the same; to display His glory. In that sense, there is no way God can change. His course of action, purpose, feelings, and thoughts will always remain the same.
Does that make sense?
I agree with the first part, but I don't know about that second part there, where you said,
"he does in fact make our lives great, but only after we come to him."
I know a lot of people who are not saved and who are living greater lives than some Christians. (By "greater", I am assuming that you mean more easy, happy, comfortable life.) And I also know that becoming a Christian is no cake walk. If anything, things seem to always get worse. It's easy to swim with the current, but always hard to swim upcurrent. Christians should be going agianst the "flow" of the world and society.
Christianity is a battle—not a dream.
- WENDELL PHILLIPS (1811–1884)
The early church and the life of all the apostles (most especially noticable in Paul's life) were greatly troubled and they had to put up with a great deal of persecution for their faith.
A man who has faith must be prepared not only to be a
martyr, but to be a fool.
- G. K. CHESTERTON (1874–1936)
Z Man
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God's purpose and plan for His creation is to glorify Himself. That's it. That's why everything exists. For His glory - for His self-exaltation - for His joy and pleasure.
If our will thwarts His will, then He is not Supreme and Sovereign, and He could never be happy, thus we would never be happy. Nothing would work.
Because God is most interested in the display of His glory rather than our comfort and a "relationship" with us (as if He was lonely and needed a friend), He will not hesitate to do whatever it takes, sovereignly, to make sure His glory is shown, whether it pleases us or not. If God seperated Himself from His own Son, what makes you think He is so concerned with maintaining a love relationship with all of mankind? That's not His ultimate purpose; His goal is to glorify Himself, whatever the cost.
John Reformed
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Was Paul guilty of error when he said:
God works ALL THINGS together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...
I found it interesting that you did not find it necessary to support your statement by arguement or example... Please do.
John Reformed
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How about monergism?
In what way does the above limit God?
God_Is_Truth
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no, paul was not wrong. but the difference is that when you see "works" you read it as "causes" and i see it as "works" as in something after the cause.
an example of something that changes and is neither more perfect or less perect is a watch. a watch changes what time it tells every second. it has to change. if it did not change, it would not be perfect.the watch is only perfect when it is able to change. when it changes what time it displays it becomes neither more perfect, nor less perfect but just as perfect as it was before. failure to change would result in the watch no longer being perfect.
that is why Plato was wrong. something perfect CAN change and be neither a change for the better or for the worse. and thus, God no longer HAS to be immutable in that sense.
God_Is_Truth
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i think God can definately feel more than one thing at once but in different relationships. he can be angry at what person "a" did and pleased with what person "b" did.
hmm. i'm not sure i agree that his ulimate purpose is to display his glory. i agree that it is "A" purpose of his, but i'm not sure that it's always the ultimate purpose. i think God sometimes does things that while they do bring him glory (as all things he does, do bring him glory), he did not do it specifically for that reason. sometimes i believe he does things for our sake, to benefit us as a loving God should. yes, everything God does, does bring him glory. but i don't know if i agree that the ulitmate reason God does them is to bring him glory.
well, by great i did not mean necessarily through circumstances. i think that just be being able to be with God himself and understanding his grace through his Son, Jesus, on the cross and knowing that he is always with us no matter what is waht makes our lives "great". it is God who makes it great, not the circumstances.
God_Is_Truth
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well i don't mean to say that God is ever going to glorify something OTHER than himself. what i mean is that i don't think that God's purpose for doing something is to glorify himself.
will he always be glorified by what he does? yes. definately. but does God always do something just so he can be glorified? i don't think so. i believe that there are other motives for why he does things. things love, mercy, kindness etc. i don't believe that his ultimate purpose or motive for doing things is just to bring him glory.