Does Calvinism limit God?

John Reformed

New member
Thanks for the reminder Smaller,

I pray that as I seek to know Him better, that he will open my eyes to recieve greater light than the wee bit I have at this time. That is my prayer for all whom God has chosen.

John
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Jn. 8 is in a context of Jesus talking to the hard-hearted Pharisees. They are being rebuked as children of the devil. They do not love God, they are not of God, and they do not have ears to hear.

We concur that they are spiritually dead. If they would have believed His testimony (which they did not, even in the face of miracles), and been WILLING (even if not able to on their own) to repent and obey, God could have and would have saved them. With the hard-hearted He preached judgment. Their are many other examples with the broken and open people where Jesus just had to say: Come, follow me; Go, and sin no more; remember me= Today you will be with me in paradise. A mustard seed of faith resulted in transformation from the kingdom of Self/darkness to the Kingdom of God.

Jn. 8 is not a proof passage for Total Depravity. It is specifically dealing with willfully blind and deaf religious people who ultimately crucified Christ. There were Pharisees that did believe. Nicodemus was an example (Jn. 3). Is it that he was chosen from eternity as one of the 'elect' and the others were chosen to demonstrate God's wrath (predestined to hell even if they would have liked to follow Christ)? Nicodemus had a different heart than most Pharisees. He sought the Lord out and wanted to understand spiritual truth. Jesus gave him more light that changed him, rather than hardened him. He did not blaspheme God and His works like the other Pharisees did. There is nothing implicit in Scripture to think that this was because of predestination and election. It seems to be a matter of hunger or hatred for the Living God. There is no good reason why God would not draw all men to Himself and impartially love everyone equally. There is no reason to think the atonement was only intended for those God elected before birth. It is comprehensible that the atonement is for the whole world, yet not everyone will be willing to hear and obey His voice. The Pharisees did hear the truth of the Messiah, but they refused to trust Him.

My rejection of Total Depravity does not mean that it is easy to repent and obey. We have physical depravity that makes it difficult to not live for self and the flesh. It is not a vertical mountain impossible to climb, not is it a flat plane that makes it easy. There is a steep grade and left to ourselves we do not seek God nor walk in the Spirit. I do not believe we have moral depravity as a fetus since sin is a wrong moral choice/lawlessness, not a physical, inherited substance.

So when the truth of God hits us, we can plug our ears and continue in sin, or we can take steps toward seeking God. He initiates, he draws, he enables (which is not coercive). When we say in simplicity and child-like faith: Just as I am I come...have mercy on men a sinner...the King of the universe floods into our lives transforming us and enabling genuine repentance and faith. If we harden our heart on the day of salvation, we are warned about the consequences of unbelief (Hebrews).

I affirm that we cannot save ourselves. I disagree that it is not innate to want to know the Creator. I disagree that God only wants to save a few in a holy huddle independent of our wills. Repentance and faith are not works. They are not done by God, but God frees us up to do so if we will hear and obey His voice and conviction. If we hear but disobey, His voice and conviction will wane eventually. We are without excuse, nor is God to blame for those who are lost.

So, do we passively wait for God to save the elect? The Calvinists in the 1900s did that and they were a dead group among dying men.

Evangelist Charles G. Finney was powerfully transformed as he submitted to God's conviction and call. He saw dead men swept into the kingdom in New York as he preached the character and attributes of God and the law of God as a schoolmaster. He assumed from Scripture that God wanted to save all those who would hear and obey the truth preached in the power of the Spirit and authority of the Word. He fulfilled the Great Commission and saw people come to Christ (will, intellect, not primarily emotion as you would accuse him). Unlike today, a high percentage of people remained disciples. He did not preach 'easy believism'.

How to preach the Gospel:

"We should present to their minds the character of God, his government, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the plan of salvation, any such thing that is calculated to charm the sinner away from his sins, and from pursuing his own interests, and that is calculated to excite him to disinterested (unselfish) and universal love. On the other hand, his own deformity, selfishness, self-will, pride, ambition, enmity, lusts, guilt, loathsomeness, hatefulness, spiritual death, dependence, its nature and extent; all these things should be brought to bear in a burning focus on his mind. Right over against his own selfishness, enmity, self-will, and loathsome depravity, should be set the disinterestedness (unselfish), the great love, the infinite compassion, the meekness, the condescension, purity, holiness, truthfulness, and justice of the blessed God. THESE SHOULD BE HELD BEFORE HIM LIKE A MIRROR UNTIL THEY PRESS ON HIM WITH SUCH MOUNTAIN WEIGHT AS TO BREAK HIS HEART."

The Spirit uses the foolishness of preaching Christ and Him crucified to convict, convince, and convert. Jesus and Paul preached this way revealing the love and holiness of God in contrast to the sinfulness of man. So should the church today, rather than waiting for God to write in the sky. There is no passion and urgency to preach the Gospel if everyone's destinies are fixed as the lucky 'elect' or the loser non-elect. It is all of God and nothing of man...or is it? He commands men everywhere to repent. He commands us to be born again. These are not optional suggestions. God would not tell us to repent or come to Him to have life if we were 'dead' to the point we could not even cry out for mercy in response to His love and conviction. This is a simple act of the will and mind (child like faith we are exhorted to).
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

Jn. 8 is in a context of Jesus talking to the hard-hearted Pharisees. They are being rebuked as children of the devil. They do not love God, they are not of God, and they do not have ears to hear.

We concur that they are spiritually dead. If they would have believed His testimony (which they did not, even in the face of miracles), and been WILLING (even if not able to on their own) to repent and obey, God could have and would have saved them. With the hard-hearted He preached judgment. Their are many other examples with the broken and open people where Jesus just had to say: Come, follow me; Go, and sin no more; remember me= Today you will be with me in paradise. A mustard seed of faith resulted in transformation from the kingdom of Self/darkness to the Kingdom of God.

If you read John 8 again, you will see that Christ was adddressing a group of people.Some recieved His word :

v. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Later he characterizes each group (those who believed and those who did not) as having different fathers.

of the unbelievers: 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God;...44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do...therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

Of the believers: He who is of God hears God's words;

This is not complicated.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
If you are already a believer, you will hear and obey God's voice. This is evidence that you are currently a believer.

If you are an unbeliever, you will not hear and obey His voice in an ongoing manner. This does not preclude the possibility of becoming a believer at some point and then joining those who do hear and obey His voice. In the meantime, by definition, they do not have God as their Father. This does not mean that they cannot enter a relationship with God if they repent and obey. They will then be made alive with the ability to know and love Him.

I would not read into this passage a doctrine of election and predestination. Other passages are clear that we are to preach to all men, and some will respond and some will not (at the time or maybe not forever). There is no reason to assume that God predestines some and not others. This is eisegesis of a preconceived theology.

Again, how would you paraphrase the verses I mentioned earlier to teach a TULIP and a non-TULIP view. The Greek and English language is sufficient to clearly express either view. The simple, literal reading supports an unlimited atonement efficacious for all who would believe.
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

If you are already a believer, you will hear and obey God's voice. This is evidence that you are currently a believer.

How can one become a believer prior to hearing? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

If you are an unbeliever, you will not hear and obey His voice in an ongoing manner. This does not preclude the possibility of becoming a believer at some point and then joining those who do hear and obey His voice. In the meantime, by definition, they do not have God as their Father. This does not mean that they cannot enter a relationship with God if they repent and obey. They will then be made alive with the ability to know and love Him.

"If you are an unbeliever, you will not hear and obey His voice in an ongoing manner."

:confused Please provide a foundation for your statement.

I would not read into this passage a doctrine of election and pre destination. Other passages are clear that we are to preach to all men, and some will respond and some will not (at the time or maybe not forever). There is no reason to assume that God predestines some and not others. This is eisegesis of a preconceived theology.

I also believe that we should proclaim the gospel to all men. I don't pretend to know who will believe or who will not.

You say there is no reason to believe in election. If you wish I can provide you with plenty of reasons from straight out of the Bible.

Merely saying something is eisegesis is not a valid arguement. If you want to be taken seriously, one should be prepared to prove it.

Again, how would you paraphrase the verses I mentioned earlier to teach a TULIP and a non-TULIP view. The Greek and English language is sufficient to clearly express either view. The simple, literal reading supports an unlimited atonement efficacious for all who would believe.

What was the post #?

I affirm that man must believe. The question is from where does the desire to believe spring from? Why do some very moral people reject the gospel, but, some very wicked people recieve it?

The answer is found in God's will; Not man's!
 

jobeth

Member
The gospel concerning the reign of an omnicausal God, implies and necessitates an Unlimited Atonement.

If God sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, so that we have no choice but to obey Him, then He should pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world, not us. And He did.

(2 Cor 5:19 KJV) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

We cannot acknowledge that God controls everything, without recognizing that He’s the one responsible for everything that happens. And if that is so, and it is, then He should pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world, and He did. So in one sense the gospel that Jesus preached (that God controls everything) implies and necessitates an unlimited atonement, and in another way the gospel that you’ve heard (that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and was raised on the third day), provides proof that the gospel Jesus preached is true.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
John: Posts #810 and #812 for verses to paraphrase from our 2 perspectives (it seems to me the simple reading can only support one view= unlimited atonement or limited atonement; there must be a way to convey the opposite view even if we do not believe it; the only way I can think is to substitute the word 'elect' for 'world, everyone, anyone, etc.).

Why do some so-called moral people reject Christ while some ungodly people receive Him? I do not see why this has to be solely grounded in God's will. This seems contrary to His revealed, impartial character consistent with true love and holiness.

Why is it not plausible that man is accountable for what He does with the truth (will, intellect).

I know there are great Calvinistic apologists. What is the role of apologetics if destiny is a foregone conclusion?

An unbeliever is generally indifferent and deaf to God. However, God is able to get there attention as evidenced by unbelievers becoming believers.

Is it not consistent with Scripture to preach Christ and Him crucified? Most humans have will, intellect , and emotions. If we share evidence for the existence of God, personal testimony, historical evidence for the Deity and resurrection of Christ, etc. anyone can be changed or hardened by it. Christianity is rational. When God imparts the revelation and quickens the mind and spirit anyone can be saved. People who are not even seeking God have been saved when they hear of the love of God. The simple showing of the Jesus movie or The Passion has resulted in people believing. God was involved, but it is not self-evident that some were destined and others were not given the same opportunity.
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

John: Posts #810 and #812 for verses to paraphrase from our 2 perspectives (it seems to me the simple reading can only support one view= unlimited atonement or limited atonement; there must be a way to convey the opposite view even if we do not believe it; the only way I can think is to substitute the word 'elect' for 'world, everyone, anyone, etc.).

Why do some so-called moral people reject Christ while some ungodly people receive Him? I do not see why this has to be solely grounded in God's will. This seems contrary to His revealed, impartial character consistent with true love and holiness.

Why is it not plausible that man is accountable for what He does with the truth (will, intellect).

I know there are great Calvinistic apologists. What is the role of apologetics if destiny is a foregone conclusion?

An unbeliever is generally indifferent and deaf to God. However, God is able to get there attention as evidenced by unbelievers becoming believers.

Is it not consistent with Scripture to preach Christ and Him crucified? Most humans have will, intellect , and emotions. If we share evidence for the existence of God, personal testimony, historical evidence for the Deity and resurrection of Christ, etc. anyone can be changed or hardened by it. Christianity is rational. When God imparts the revelation and quickens the mind and spirit anyone can be saved. People who are not even seeking God have been saved when they hear of the love of God. The simple showing of the Jesus movie or The Passion has resulted in people believing. God was involved, but it is not self-evident that some were destined and others were not given the same opportunity.

"His revealed, impartial character "?

The role of apologetics, regardless of the conclusions we come to, is to defend the Faith.

I hate to be short with you, but I just don't have the time this morning.

God Bless,
John
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God? Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event? If your answer is no then you limit God. If your answer is yes then you have to either deny predestination or believe He chose this way though He didn't have to. So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.? If you say it is to bring about His glory, is He not powerful enough to bring it about without this having to happen? I say He is. I say that since He truly is the living and loving God, if there be any other way to bring about His glory without having to do that which is against His nature then of course He would go this route. I believe He is so powerful, infact, that His glory will be established despite the evil of man. He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty.

PolyCARP,

The Bible tells us plainly that God gave the world the gift of His only begotten Son without limitations (John 3:16). Want you agree? Man had digressed into sin after listening to Satan. The garden sin was only the beginning of sorrows for man. Not that it was to be a sorrow, but man lost his right to the tree of Life, and from that time he began to physically die (Gen 3:22-24). He was driven from the garden where he was compelled to work and earn his substance by the sweat of his brow (Gen 3:190.

Sin began to play a dominant role in the life of man "an God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen.6:5). God determined in his righteousness that ungodly man world be destroyed from the earth and the godly among man would be spared. A great flood was brought upon the earth that extended high above the mountains and all life on earth was destroyed except for eight souls saved in the ark built by Noah (Gen 6:17; 1Peter 3:20). From this family of Noah and his wife, his three sins and their wives, the earth was to be replenished with human life. With the animals saved on the ark, new life filled all the earth. Man again prospered to fill the earth with life, but the imaginations of his heart succumbed to the voice of Satan, and man became wicked in all his ways, as before. Though God did not destroy man, his language and source of communication was confused and man was greatly disbursed throughout the land. There was but few that could be found that were following the voice of God.

Confusion and mistrust continues to cause man to fail in his own direction. Satan can be a strong and domineering factor. God knew this, "that it is not in man to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). He determined to send His Son into the world to show mankind how life should be lived, and how they should walk. He was sent into the Jewish society, the children of Israel as they were known, to be a spiritual Light (John 1:9). His nation and people greatly refused Him, and continued to live in the traditions of their fathers (Jn. 1:11;Lk19:14). As God had spoken before, he world "bring upon them all the word of this covenant (the law of Moses), which was commanded for them to do , but obeyed not (Jer. 11:8).

God's wrath and judgement was set to destroy man, but he remembered His promise made to Abraham a man of faith, that of his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed (Gen. 22:18). This blessing would come in the form of His Son (Gal 4:4). His Son Jesus lived a righteous life among man, and for three and a half years He showed man how he could live a righteous life (1 Peter 2:21). His covenant for man superseded the law of Moses (Jn. 1:17; Heb 9:15: 10:9,10). In His law we are to hear and believe His message (Mt. 7:24), repent of our sins (Luke 13:3), confess Christ before man as God's son (Mt 10:32), and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Man then has the gift of God and is truly a Christian, for he has the gift of God, the Holy Spirit, and the promise of eternal life (Rom. 8:9; Heb. 5:8,9).

JustAChristian :angel:
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

PolyCARP,

The Bible tells us plainly that God gave the world the gift of His only begotten Son without limitations (John 3:16). Want you agree? Man had digressed into sin after listening to Satan. The garden sin was only the beginning of sorrows for man. Not that it was to be a sorrow, but man lost his right to the tree of Life, and from that time he began to physically die (Gen 3:22-24). He was driven from the garden where he was compelled to work and earn his substance by the sweat of his brow (Gen 3:190.

Sin began to play a dominant role in the life of man "an God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen.6:5). God determined in his righteousness that ungodly man world be destroyed from the earth and the godly among man would be spared. A great flood was brought upon the earth that extended high above the mountains and all life on earth was destroyed except for eight souls saved in the ark built by Noah (Gen 6:17; 1Peter 3:20). From this family of Noah and his wife, his three sins and their wives, the earth was to be replenished with human life. With the animals saved on the ark, new life filled all the earth. Man again prospered to fill the earth with life, but the imaginations of his heart succumbed to the voice of Satan, and man became wicked in all his ways, as before. Though God did not destroy man, his language and source of communication was confused and man was greatly disbursed throughout the land. There was but few that could be found that were following the voice of God.

Confusion and mistrust continues to cause man to fail in his own direction. Satan can be a strong and domineering factor. God knew this, "that it is not in man to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). He determined to send His Son into the world to show mankind how life should be lived, and how they should walk. He was sent into the Jewish society, the children of Israel as they were known, to be a spiritual Light (John 1:9). His nation and people greatly refused Him, and continued to live in the traditions of their fathers (Jn. 1:11;Lk19:14). As God had spoken before, he world "bring upon them all the word of this covenant (the law of Moses), which was commanded for them to do , but obeyed not (Jer. 11:8).

God's wrath and judgement was set to destroy man, but he remembered His promise made to Abraham a man of faith, that of his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed (Gen. 22:18). This blessing would come in the form of His Son (Gal 4:4). His Son Jesus lived a righteous life among man, and for three and a half years He showed man how he could live a righteous life (1 Peter 2:21). His covenant for man superseded the law of Moses (Jn. 1:17; Heb 9:15: 10:9,10). In His law we are to hear and believe His message (Mt. 7:24), repent of our sins (Luke 13:3), confess Christ before man as God's son (Mt 10:32), and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Man then has the gift of God and is truly a Christian, for he has the gift of God, the Holy Spirit, and the promise of eternal life (Rom. 8:9; Heb. 5:8,9).

JustAChristian :angel:
I don't understand the point of this post...

:confused:
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Z Man

I don't understand the point of this post...

:confused:

Z Man,

Could it be because you do not understand the true nature of God, Christ His Son and His church?

JustAChristian

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21 AV)

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17 AV)
 

Z Man

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Z Man,

Could it be because you do not understand the true nature of God, Christ His Son and His church?

JustAChristian

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21 AV)

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17 AV)
That's just it. See, Poly and myself both understand those things, but you created a post that sounded more like something a person would say in sharing Christ with a non-believer. Your post had nothing to do with the topic that Poly had originally came up with in her post that you quoted.

Do you believe Calvinism limits God? That's the question and the topic at hand. This isn't "Tell others about Jesus" thread...
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Z Man

That's just it. See, Poly and myself both understand those things, but you created a post that sounded more like something a person would say in sharing Christ with a non-believer. Your post had nothing to do with the topic that Poly had originally came up with in her post that you quoted.

Do you believe Calvinism limits God? That's the question and the topic at hand. This isn't "Tell others about Jesus" thread...

Z Man,

Yes, I believe that Calvinism limits God. I thought my post went a lot towards showing how God is limited. Calvinism is limited by not believing in the call by the gospel to all. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for whosoever will hear and obey it. Calvinism does not preach obedience to the gospel (Rom. 1:16; Heb. 5:8-9).

John Calvin (1509-1564) took Augustine's concepts of predestination and original sin and made them his major premises upon which to build a systematic theology. In doing so, Calvin borrowed from Luther, Bucer, Wycliffe, Huss, and others, but he especially copied Augustine. The writings of Calvin are full of quotations from and references to Augustine.

The basic assumption of Calvinism is predestination, which is necessary to the Calvinist view of God as so absolutely and totally sovereign that man is not permitted to have any freedom of action at all. God preplanned everything. God programmed the computer (the universe) with his own predestined or foreordained program, and all men, like all other creatures and things, are but robots carrying out the absolutely sovereign will of God.

With predestination as the basic design goes total hereditary depravity as the mechanism by which foreordination is carried out. Depravity (popularly known as "original sin") guarantees that predestination will be carried out; it does so by causing all men to be basically evil, incapable of doing or thinking anything good. Thus all men would be automatically lost unless God directly intervenes in their lives by irresistible grace through the direct operation of the Holy Spirit (called "Holy Spirit baptism" or the "religious experience"). This direct action of God is the result of particular election (specific individuals having been predestined to salvation, thus "elected"), and it is called "unconditional salvation" because it is totally God's doing rather than man's. It is so effective that final perseverance ("once-saved-always-saved") is assured.

If one accepts the two basic premises of Calvinism, predestination and total hereditary depravity, one is almost obligated to accept the rest of the system. If one predestined to heaven is born in sin, some direct Divine action is required to prevent him from going to hell. Since Adamic sin prevents him from doing anything to help himself, he cannot believe the gospel or react in any way to any kind of effort on his behalf. God must do it all. And in order to eliminate the necessity of repeated interventions by God, the action must be indelible. Thus, predestination and original sin necessitate effectual calling, irresistible grace, and final perseverance. The limited atonement concept of Calvinism is essential if one accepts Calvin's view of unconditional salvation; otherwise God would have started something he could not finish, and that is unthinkable, all the more so to the Calvinist mind.

Many of the fallacies of the Calvinist system are apparent. It does not take much effort to see how it conflicts with the truth found in the Bible. The free agency of man is in direct conflict with absolute sovereignty of God; conditions of salvation like faith, repentance, and baptism plainly contradict unconditional salvation. Predestination that specifies pre-named individuals to go to heaven or to hell apart from any action on their part makes God a respecter of persons. Christ died for all men, not just for a select few. Men have a part in reconciliation, and men must continue to grow in faith, virtue, knowledge, etc., to make their calling and election sure.

In the first three centuries of the Christian era the emphasis in the doctrine of election was on the freedom of man's will; then came Augustine. Augustine (354-430 A.D.), a philosopher before his conversion, was an ascetic whose extreme consciousness of sin led him to speculate as to the reason for its universality. He concluded that sin was so common because men were born sinners by heredity, and his doctrine of "Adamic sin" was accepted as the standard belief of Roman and Greek Catholics. He also taught predestination and other concepts adopted by Reformation leaders.

The Calvinist view of election, modified and softened by various influences, largely prevails in today's Protestant world. Many of its concepts, derived from Augustine, are also held solidly by Catholics, but the honest biblical scholar will find that the early church held a different view.

JustAChristian
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Just a Christian:

I concur that much of Calvinism is not Scriptural and had Augustinian roots. The character of God and His moral government allow Him to be sovereign while giving genuine freedom to other moral agents.

What are your influences (speakers, authors, books, churches, etc.)? What material have you found helpful to formulate your understanding?
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

Just a Christian:

I concur that much of Calvinism is not Scriptural and had Augustinian roots. The character of God and His moral government allow Him to be sovereign while giving genuine freedom to other moral agents.

What are your influences (speakers, authors, books, churches, etc.)? What material have you found helpful to formulate your understanding?

Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

You, my friend godrulz, have cocurred with a blatant absurdity!

You speak of Augustine as if he was a deterent rather than a facillitator of sound doctrine. Since when has he fallen out of esteem with the church at large?

As far as calvinism lacking scriptural foundation...you must be desperate to even suggest such a falsehood.

Give me Scripture that disproves calvinism. I am weary from your philosophy and contorted logic; your desire to squeeze God down into a mold that satisfies your carnal conceptions.

May God have mercy on you.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Boo hoo. God has had mercy on me!


Some research would show you that Augustine wrestled with his own carnality and produced doctrines based on his own bondage. He had pagan philosophical influences. I respect and appreciate Augustine, but not all of his ideas were Scriptural. In fact, they were tainted by philosophy and subjective experience. We need to critically examine the roots of beliefs, and not blindly accept them because they are normative in Reformed circles (contrary to millions of Arminian-Wesleyans, etc.).
 

LightSon

New member
I find it reasonable that Augustine and Calvin were a men of imperfect (sinful) passions. As a fallen men, why should their positions be uniquely above suspicion?
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by LightSon

I find it reasonable that Augustine and Calvin were a men of imperfect (sinful) passions. As a fallen men, why should their positions be uniquely above suspicion?

Of course that is a reasonable position to take! What angered me was the unwarrented attack on these men. It was unsubstantiated propaganda; Guilt by asscociation.

Calvin read Augustine.. who read Plato.. which must mean that they were polluted in their theology...Hogwash!
 

JustAChristian

New member
What is my source...

What is my source...

Originally posted by godrulz

Just a Christian:

I concur that much of Calvinism is not Scriptural and had Augustinian roots. The character of God and His moral government allow Him to be sovereign while giving genuine freedom to other moral agents.

What are your influences (speakers, authors, books, churches, etc.)? What material have you found helpful to formulate your understanding?

godrulz,

Thanks for your comments. I am a minister in the Churches of Christ. I have read extensively in writings by Robert Shank, a noted Baptist scholar, such as "Elect In The Son" and "Life In The Son." In addition, I have read Earl Cairen's book "Christianity Through The Ages" which gave me great insight to Calvinism and the church fathers.

In Christ,
JustAChristian
 
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