Does Calvinism limit God?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by John Reformed

The Israelites, when they were led to the Promised Land, were commanded utterly to destroy the descendants of Canaan then possessing it (Ex. 23:23; Num. 33:52, 53; Deut. 20:16, 17).

Today, this extermination of a people is called genocide.

Explain.

:doh:

smaller/John:

Surely you understand the difference between a holy, righteous God exacting just judgment on wickedness and the work of evil men. This is His right and responsibility as the Moral Governor of the universe. God's character and attributes are exalted in judging unrepentant rebels, even by killing them. This also protects the rest of society from being corrupted by the wicked. In the same vein, godly capital punishment by the state or God Himself is good and just. In contrast, the murder of innocent people by mere mortals is evil, sinful, and condemned by God and society.

Hitler was not exacting God's righteous punishment against evil Jews. He was acting under the inspiration of the Prince of Darkness in rebellion against the most High God. cf. the slaughter of babies by abortion. Raping a baby has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with sinful man and evil demons.

God eventually raised up a standard against Hitler, and he was defeated in the natural and in cosmic warfare.

You mock my small 'god' and quip at my theology.

You both display an abysmal lack of understanding of basic Bible concepts (God's righteous judgments in the earth) and call evil good and good evil (Hitler, murder= God's 'will'). You slander God's character and ways, and I rebuke you for this.

 

[godrulz]

smaller:

Refresh my memory on the 'pollyanna' allusion.

See above for elementary understanding of the difference between God justly wiping out the planet (sovereign will) and the evil work of men/demons (free will).

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by godrulz

God's will is done in heaven. I suppose there would not be a move to sin.
I can only guess that is has something to do with our glorified bodies, God's presence and rule, the absence of temptation, etc.

To deny free will is problematic and probably unnecessary in light of other possible explanations.

Please offer some other possible explanation of how God can have His will exclusively done without infringing on what other people want (overridding their freewill) and without everyone wanting exactly what God wants (overridding their personal desire).

If any person only ever wants exactly what God wants, then how can they be said to have a free will? Is a person that has a free will that exactly lines up with what God wants just a happy coincidence? If it is, then why doesn't this happy coincidence happen more often than it does?

Perhaps heaven is composed entirely of those few of us who happen to want exactly what God wants? If that were the case, then to an outsider it would appear that those inside all have no free will, but those of us on the inside, of course, would know that it is simply a happy coincidence that we freely want exactly what God wants.

And if it is not a coincidence, then someone has rigged the whole thing to make it appear that way to us.

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

God's will is done in both heaven and earth. The issue is about "how" it is done--"as it is..."

This is the only interpretation that does not conflict with other clear statements of Scripturem such as, "He does according to His will in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth"; "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did He in heaven and on earth, in the seas, and all deep places" for He "works ALL things after the counsel of His own will." "Who hath resisted His will?" For He says, "I will work, and who will hinder it?"

At the present time His will is done on earth against the railings of those who dispute the reality of His absolute, all encompassing reign; it is done on earth not willingly, as it is in heaven, but by those who wickedly intend evil outcomes by their devious schemes. Nevertheless His will is, without fail, done as He "frustrates the devices of the wicked" and brings the "counsel of the heathen to nothing."

It is such a pity that there are those who profess to love Him who cannot bear the thought of His absolute sovereign reign. "Known unto God are all His works from the foundation of the world." They are known because the might of His omnipotence secures and executes all of His decree--in spite of those who deny and despise the fact that in everything, His providence works out that which He has decreed from everlasting.

I agree that God's will is done both in Heaven and on earth. It is as you say, that some imagine that they are thwarting God's will and ruining his purpose or destroying his plans are all delusional.

One guy was telling me how he was sinning and struggling and greiving the Lord, and I stopped him and said "You are not more powerful than God." And he said, "Well, I know that." And I said, "No you don't." And that shut him up good.

People love to boast about their sin, because they think it proves that they are more powerful than God. But they aren't. God is not harmed by their sin, and in fact we are all mere instruments in His hand to do what is necessary, as He pleases.

What? Didn't you know that there is no unnecessary evil, but that all things happen according to God's will and that all things facilitate His good purpose?

The reason people cling to the notion of free will, is because they love their sin, which they can only do if they are free from God's control.

How can you disobey an Omnicausal God? You cannot.

If God controls everything, then He should be the one to pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world, not us. And He did.

 

[godrulz]

It is a false assumption to say that God controls everything. When a quarterback throws a football, it is the will, muscle, brain, etc. of the human combined with God's laws of nature that result in the ball going where it does. There is no need for God to control every moral or mundane choice of other moral agents. Their will is a creative will allowed by a non-control freak Creator. Not only is there no need for God to meticulously control everything, it is self-evident and Scriptural that He does not (evil being the case in point).

As to heaven, when we see Him, we will be like Him. Our desires and character will conform to His will. We will have perfect light and the enablement to live for God rather than the flesh. The exact details of how or why this is would be speculative (not everything is revealed about everything yet).

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

It is a false assumption to say that God controls everything. When a quarterback throws a football, it is the will, muscle, brain, etc. of the human combined with God's laws of nature that result in the ball going where it does. There is no need for God to control every moral or mundane choice of other moral agents. Their will is a creative will allowed by a non-control freak Creator. Not only is there no need for God to meticulously control everything, it is self-evident and Scriptural that He does not (evil being the case in point).

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Give me one reason why I should accept anything you've said! It is merely your private opinion.

 

[godrulz]

Not all areas of knowledge are explicitly addressed in the Bible. Sound reasoning and revelation are needed to discern truth. Free will is consistent with Scripture and reality.

Scripture is the final authority, but I would not be using a proof-text from Proverbs (wisdom literature; Hebraic idioms; figurative language vs doctrinal material) as a didactic passage to build a case (especially when a narrow interpretation contradicts more didactic passages).

You should not blindly accept anything I say, but great scholars and millions of Christians in the Wesleyan-Arminian camp concur with the gist of my understanding. I do not like the divisive us-vs them mentality, but deterministic Calvinism simply is not the best understanding of God and His ways (in my humble opinion). THe Reformed-Calvinistic mindset has significant influence in academic circles, but a new Reformation is happening that gives God His rightful place without mental gymnastics robbing us of our free will and responsibility.

 

[lee_merrill]

Please offer some other possible explanation of how God can have His will exclusively done without infringing on what other people want (overridding their freewill) and without everyone wanting exactly what God wants (overridding their personal desire).

Jobeth's point here is quite apt, this does address well those who are holding that free will apart from God's will is essential to humanity.

Godrulz: The Reformed-Calvinistic mindset has significant influence in academic circles, but a new Reformation is happening that gives God His rightful place without mental gymnastics robbing us of our free will and responsibility.

Here's a possibility! (so to speak )

How about if there is room in God's will? That is, we may make free choices within God's will? i.e. people in heaven can't choose to sin, but they may really choose anything that is not sinful?

Here is an example:

1CO 7:38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.

Paul is saying that both alternatives are available, that the "better" choice is not the only choice. You can choose! God's will is not a monorail...

And there is more to come:

LK 19:17 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

See also Rev. 3:21!

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

There is a difference between being able to sin and not sinning.

The impeccability of Christ teaching speculates whether Jesus was able to sin, but did not; or Jesus was not able to sin at all, and did not.

Sin is a wrong moral choice. I still think Jesus and us are able to sin, but it is possible to not sin. In Jesus' case, it was only theoretical, because though He was tempted, He would never chose to sin (based on the perfect light and heart he had).

Some see God's will as a target with a bullseye. You are either in the will of God in every detail of your life or you are not.

A better model is seeing that God's moral will requires obedience (you are either in His moral will or not= obedience is expected). Things that are not revealed moral issues (like which college you go to), have a broader area of freedom, where we can be in God's will regardless which school we pick. God can give wisdom and guidance, but there is more than one possibility to choose and still be in God's will.
God's sovereign will is not always revealed and He will bring it to pass with or without us.

These principles are developed by Gary Friesen in "Decision Making and the Will of God" - Multnomah Press

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Here's a possibility! (so to speak )

How about if there is room in God's will? That is, we may make free choices within God's will? i.e. people in heaven can't choose to sin, but they may really choose anything that is not sinful?

Here is an example:

1CO 7:38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.

Paul is saying that both alternatives are available, that the "better" choice is not the only choice. You can choose! God's will is not a monorail...

And there is more to come:

LK 19:17 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

See also Rev. 3:21!

Blessings,
Lee

If the rule says that if you marry, you must marry either a virgin or a widow (and this rule only applied to priests and levites, not to all tribes), then you are free to a) marry a virgin or b) marry a widow or c) not marry at all. According to the rules a priest or a Levite is not free to marry just anyone from his tribe. Divorced women, non-virgins, and prostitutes, and of course other men, even from among their own tribe were off-limits to them. But if he chooses to marry, he must marry according to specific rules.

That does not leave a lot of "play" for dickering with the rules, imo. But perhaps some of you will find comfort in having any options at all. You don't HAVE to marry and you don't HAVE to marry a virgin. You can abstain from marrying a virgin, if you want, by remaining single. And you can abstain from remaining single, if that is your choice, but only by marrying a virgin or a widow.

And even among married people, there were rules concerning conjugation. It was required to abstain from sex for the 7 days of your spouse's menustration and for 7 additional days of purification. That's 14 days out of every 28 days! And this rule applied to everyone, not just priests and Levites.

You might say we ought to rejoice over the 14 days on rather than mourn over the 14 days off, but some here might disagree with that kind of polyianism.

Makes one glad to be a gentile, doesn't it?

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by godrulz

There is a difference between being able to sin and not sinning.

The impeccability of Christ teaching speculates whether Jesus was able to sin, but did not; or Jesus was not able to sin at all, and did not.

Sin is a wrong moral choice. I still think Jesus and us are able to sin, but it is possible to not sin.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This verse seems to refute your assertion that Jesus was able to sin.

 

[godrulz]

The context of I John 3 is talking about believers, not the Lord Jesus. Therefore, we cannot use it to make a case for or against the impeccability of Christ (whether He could or could not sin...bottom line is that He did not sin!).

A basis understanding of Greek verb tenses also clarifies the meaning of the passage (it does not teach that it is impossible for us to sin after conversion). The present indicative tense is a continuous tense and refers to the ongoing, habitual sinning. It does not preclude the possibility of isolated lapses in sin (we all know believers, especially ourselves, who have sinned after being born of God). I John 1:8-10 says we should not claim to not sin (as believers). If we do sin, there is provision if we repent and obey again..."If we (believers) confess our sins...He (God) is faithful..."

I John 3:9 in the NIV correctly translates the Greek intent:

"No one who is born of God will CONTINUE (habitual, ongoing, lifestyle) to sin...he cannot go on sinning (continuous vs isolated lapse that is repented of)...

Many other passages show the possibility of a believer sinning, and the need to repent and restore obedience and intimacy with God. This fits better with free will theism than the Perseverance of the saints of Calvinism (TULIP). i.e. we are warned about the possibility of apostasy and the need to enter into and maintain a relationship with God (vs once saved always saved= unconditional eternal security).

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

Not all areas of knowledge are explicitly addressed in the Bible. Sound reasoning and revelation are needed to discern truth. Free will is consistent with Scripture and reality.

Scripture is the final authority, but I would not be using a proof-text from Proverbs (wisdom literature; Hebraic idioms; figurative language vs doctrinal material) as a didactic passage to build a case (especially when a narrow interpretation contradicts more didactic passages).

You should not blindly accept anything I say, but great scholars and millions of Christians in the Wesleyan-Arminian camp concur with the gist of my understanding. I do not like the divisive us-vs them mentality, but deterministic Calvinism simply is not the best understanding of God and His ways (in my humble opinion). THe Reformed-Calvinistic mindset has significant influence in academic circles, but a new Reformation is happening that gives God His rightful place without mental gymnastics robbing us of our free will and responsibility.

Man is free to follow the desires of his heart. Calvinists
DO NOT deny that man has this ability! The problem is that, apart from grace, the desires of the human heart are wicked continually.
This sinfull inclination is testified to throughout the Bible, and I am amazed at the attempt to dismiss or explain away this evidence.

EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1JO 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ROM 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. JAM 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

[12]ROM 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[smaller]

The Apostle John has LEFT you all with a MOST DIFFICULT position to remedy:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John also said YOU CANNOT SAY YOU HAVE NO SIN.

So you have quite a dilema here people. Get it?

Sin is NOT (as godrulz' record skips on) "a bad moral decision." Sin specifically is A. OF THE DEVIL B.) Anything not of faith. C.) Lawlessness

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Most of you do not believe that JESUS WAS A SUCCESS in destroying the WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

You might also NOTE that Jesus CONDEMNED SIN in sinful FLESH. That is where SIN RESIDES.

So John has your understandings TRAPPED.

On the one hand you CANNOT SAY YOU HAVE NO SIN.

On the other hand the one who sins is OF THE DEVIL and HAS NEVER KNOWN GOD.

Quite a little dilema eh?

lol

Separate YOURSELF (and ALL OTHER PEOPLE) from SIN and you will FIND YOUR WAY through John's TRAP.

smaller

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by smaller

The Apostle John has LEFT you all with a MOST DIFFICULT position to remedy:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John also said YOU CANNOT SAY YOU HAVE NO SIN.

So you have quite a dilema here people. Get it?

Sin is NOT (as godrulz' record skips on) "a bad moral decision." Sin specifically is A. OF THE DEVIL B.) Anything not of faith. C.) Lawlessness

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Most of you do not believe that JESUS WAS A SUCCESS in destroying the WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

You might also NOTE that Jesus CONDEMNED SIN in sinful FLESH. That is where SIN RESIDES.

So John has your understandings TRAPPED.

On the one hand you CANNOT SAY YOU HAVE NO SIN.

On the other hand the one who sins is OF THE DEVIL and HAS NEVER KNOWN GOD.

Quite a little dilema eh?

lol

Separate YOURSELF (and ALL OTHER PEOPLE) from SIN and you will FIND YOUR WAY through John's TRAP.

smaller

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The way I understand this problem of sin, is that the sins committed by regenerate people are grievous to the Holy Spirit displeasing to the Father and a blot on our witness as children of God. These sins grieve the offender as well. Paul cried out "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

All christians are in the same boat as Paul. But thanks be to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, for He has set us free from the Law of sin and death. In the flesh, I am condemned but in Christ I am as clean as the wind driven snow.

It is of the utmost importance to inform ourselves of the whole counsel of God; interpreting scripture with scripture and understanding difficult passages in the light of those whose meaning is plain.

 

[smaller]

Nice try John but I fail to see you as HAVING NO SIN (as John RIGHTly points out) as much as you Calvies like to pretend you are sinless.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

Not all areas of knowledge are explicitly addressed in the Bible. Sound reasoning and revelation are needed to discern truth. Free will is consistent with Scripture and reality.

Scripture is the final authority, but I would not be using a proof-text from Proverbs (wisdom literature; Hebraic idioms; figurative language vs doctrinal material) as a didactic passage to build a case (especially when a narrow interpretation contradicts more didactic passages).

You should not blindly accept anything I say, but great scholars and millions of Christians in the Wesleyan-Arminian camp concur with the gist of my understanding. I do not like the divisive us-vs them mentality, but deterministic Calvinism simply is not the best understanding of God and His ways (in my humble opinion). THe Reformed-Calvinistic mindset has significant influence in academic circles, but a new Reformation is happening that gives God His rightful place without mental gymnastics robbing us of our free will and responsibility.

Taking responsibility for one’s destiny.

Open theism and arminianism put me in mind of the poem:

Invictus
by William Ernest Henley; 1849-1903

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.


In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.


Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate;
I am the captain of my soul.

Is that not what so many christians today clamor for; The right to claim "...I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."

Personally, I feel a whole lot more secure being a lump of clay in the hands of the Master Potter. Free-Will? Your welcome to it and good riddance. All I desire is God's will.

Quote from J.I. Packer "One can never distrust himself enough."

 

[godrulz]

John: There are shades of variation within Calvinism and Arminianism. I agree that we need the grace of God to follow after Him. I agree that the wicked follow after their godless desires.

Perhaps I do not understand your views. If the wicked can follow a selfish path, this seems to support the concept of free will. God does not cause them to chose selfishness in a deterministic way, or does He? We all tend to follow the flesh as we make selfish choices throughout our lives.

When we receive Christ by His grace, we desire to love and please God since we submit to His Lordship. This does not guarantee that we will never have momentary lapses, but our bent is to live for God, not ourselves. Free will is still involved whether we live for God or Self. God does not coerce choices. They originate from our wills.

Do we agree this is true for any given situation? Salvation may be slightly different. I agree that we cannot save ourselves, and without His drawing and convicting would not bow our knees. I would not agree that God choses some and not others for eternal life with no consideration to their heart, motives, and choices. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by smaller

Nice try John but I fail to see you as HAVING NO SIN (as John RIGHTly points out) as much as you Calvies like to pretend you are sinless.

Smaller please allow me to disabuse you of your notion that "calvies" pretend to be sinless, we don't. In fact we are taught to place no confidence in the flesh.

But what is wrong with citing and identifying with Paul in Rom 7?; Is it unorthodox for christians to admit their sinfulness and yet claim that "in Christ" they are justified? I think it is good news!

Does this mean we are now free to sin as we please? God forbid! It is our love for Christ that constrains us from sinning without regard for our Lord and His glory. Our desire, though we all too often fall short, is to please Him who died in our place.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

John: There are shades of variation within Calvinism and Arminianism. I agree that we need the grace of God to follow after Him. I agree that the wicked follow after their godless desires.

Perhaps I do not understand your views. If the wicked can follow a selfish path, this seems to support the concept of free will. God does not cause them to chose selfishness in a deterministic way, or does He? We all tend to follow the flesh as we make selfish choices throughout our lives.

When we receive Christ by His grace, we desire to love and please God since we submit to His Lordship. This does not guarantee that we will never have momentary lapses, but our bent is to live for God, not ourselves. Free will is still involved whether we live for God or Self. God does not coerce choices. They originate from our wills.

Do we agree this is true for any given situation? Salvation may be slightly different. I agree that we cannot save ourselves, and without His drawing and convicting would not bow our knees. I would not agree that God choses some and not others for eternal life with no consideration to their heart, motives, and choices. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.

Dear GodRulz,

Prior to regeneration, on a scale from 0 to10, our desire for God was Zero. We were dead in sin, slaves to sin, held captive by Satan to do his will, considered the things of God foolishness and were unable to even uderstand spiritual things. YOU KNOW THAT TO BE TRUE! you know it for two very good reasons #1. That is how the Bible describes the natural man; and #2. From your own experience.

Yes! I agree that man has the freedom to choose; that God does NOT compel or force man to accept or reject salvation or anything else. But... that God given freedom is limited to choosing from the desires one has in the first place. That is why the Bible attributes regeneration, not to the will of man, but to the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one that takes away the heart of stone and in it's stead replaces it with a new heart of flesh. That is what it means to be born again! Now old things have passed away and BEHOLD, have been made new. New ears that now hear and new eyes that now see and a new heart with a brand new desire to love and trust our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not by strength, not by might but by My Spirit saith the Lord.

To believe that it was our willingness that brought forth God's grace in the first place is to put the cart before the horse.

If you reflect on that moment in time when Christ burst through into your life, and faith manifested itself as a reality; I'm certain that you would conclude that what occured was your reaction to something akin to a paradigm shift. One moment you did not believe and the next you found yourself believing. In other words it was a miracle!

God Bless,
John