Does Calvinism limit God?

[JoyfulRook]

Rhetoric, Meee?????

Rhetoric, Meee?????

The Rhetorical question then arrises "Can God make a Rock so large that he cannot lift it???"

:devil:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Originally posted by Dread Helm

The Rhetorical question then arrises "Can God make a Rock so large that he cannot lift it???"

:devil:

rhetorical? more like loaded.

 

[godrulz]

Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Originally posted by Dread Helm

The Rhetorical question then arrises "Can God make a Rock so large that he cannot lift it???"

:devil:

This common question is resolved by recognizing that God can only know or do that which is logically possible to know or do (can know all that is knowable or do all that is doable).

This question is logically self-contradictory and is thus an absurdity. The universe has laws that reflect the Creator and His reality.

A square cannot be a circle at the same time in any possible universe.

2+ 2 = 4 in any rational universe (including God's).

 

[JoyfulRook]

Re: Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Re: Re: Rhetoric, Meee?????

Originally posted by godrulz

This common question is resolved by recognizing that God can only know or do that which is possible to know or do (can know all that is knowable or do all that is doable).

2+ 2 = 4 in any rational universe (including God's).

I'd agree with that. I think...

 

[godrulz]

Summary from "Pocket Handbook of Christian Apologetics" -Kreft and Tacelli

Free will vs determinism... determinism= heredity + environment; free will adds a 3rd cause to our actions= our wills.

Heredity and environment condition our acts, but they do not determine them. They are necessary causes but not sufficeint causes of freely chosen acts.

The simplest argument for the existence of free will is observation of how we use words. We praise, blame, command, counsel, exhort, moralize to each otther. We do not hold machines morally responsible for what they do. If there is no free will, all moral meaning disappears from life.

Why did God give us free will and allow us to misuse it? The ? is misleading. One does not give free will to a human. Free will is part of our essence. There can be no human being without it. The alternative to free will is not being a human but an animal or a machine.

Omnipotence: Evil's source is not God's power but man's freedom. Then why didn't God create a world without human freedom? Because that would have been a world without humans, a world without hate, but also without love. Love proceeds only from free will. Animals cannot love, they can only like.

Isn't a world with free human beings but no sin possible? Yes. And God created just such a world. But such a world - a world in which no-sin is freely possible- is necessarily a world in which sin is also freely possible. And if there are human beings at all, that is, creatures with free will, then it is up to their free choice whether that possibility of sin is freely actualized or not.

Even omnipotence could not have created a world in which there was genuine human freedom and yet no possibility of sin, for our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning. All things are possible with God, but a meaningless self-contradiction is not anything. You cannot have the possibility of freely choosing good or evil and at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. This is like asking why God didn't create round squares.

God's perfection is His consistency/not contradicting Himself. The logical law of non-contradiction applies to God. It is a universal, eternal, objective truth about reality. We discover, not invent it.

God could forcibly prevent sin (which He does not), but not without removing our freedom.

Lewis: Nonsense does not cease to be nonsense when we add the words 'God can' before it.


No Scriptures? These principles are consistent with God's revelation on every page of Scripture and our personal experiences.

 

[godrulz]

:help:

 

[smaller]

Mr. 1Way and I have had this conversation a few times now and he still does not get this simple little premise.

In order to say what God can or cannot DO one would have to have a COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of all knowable information including the physic rules of multidimensions, etc. etc. etc.

One would have to know EVERYTHING there is to possibly know in order to LIMIT GOD.

Since THIS is not possible unless YOU were God then it is MORE LIKELY IMPOSSIBLE for you to say what God can and cannot do.

The same can be said of supposed "freewill" actions. If you knew all that God is capable of doing then you could say all of your "acts" are all self wrought.

BUT we know that satan is certainly capable of both entering peoples bodies and speaking through them and even INFLUENCING THEM AND POSSESSING THEM. We even know that when WE LOVE that God Lives IN US.

Who is to say these influences are not running continually and we just do not perceive it and mistakenly call it "freewill?"

The fact of the matter is, it is MORE LIKELY that God is IN CONTROL than you are.

 

[LightSon]

I enjoyed the "Kreft and Tacelli" summary.

Kreft and Tacelli quoted by godrulz
Even omnipotence could not have created a world in which there was genuine human freedon and yet no possibility of sin, for our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning.

Then what about the next world?
If we accept this statement as an axiom, then what are the implications regarding our afterlife existence (i.e. heaven)?

The axiom would require that we either continue to sin in heaven, or that we loose our free will. Which do you suppose will be the case?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by godrulz

This is like asking why God didn't create round circles.

i believe you meant round squares. round circles are actually quite common

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i believe you meant round squares. round circles are actually quite common

 

[jobeth]

Axiom of Choice

Axiom of Choice

Then what about the next world?
If we accept this statement as an axiom, then what are the implications regarding our afterlife existence (i.e. heaven)?

The axiom would require that we either continue to sin in heaven, or that we loose our free will. Which do you suppose will be the case?

Obviously, sin will not be possible in heaven, therefore, freewill gets left behind.

 

[godrulz]

I suspect free will remains. The pull of the flesh would not be there with a glorified body. The presence of God and absence of temptation would lead to righteous living. Something about heaven could mitigate against sin, even though it would be theoretically possible?

Jesus was sinless with a free will. Lucifer had free will and sinned, but he did not have to.

If there was a move to sin in heaven, it would be dealt with quickly. We cannot remain human and personal in heaven, if our will is removed. We would not be able to think, act, or feel. We would be robots, not lovers of God.

 

[jobeth]

Godrulz:

If there was a move to sin in heaven, it would be dealt with quickly.

Is God's will done in Heaven or not?
If it isn't, then how is Heaven any different than earth?
If it is, then when would there ever be a move to sin?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by jobeth

Godrulz:

Is God's will done in Heaven or not?
If it isn't, then how is Heaven any different than earth?
If it is, then when would there ever be a move to sin?

I/we are speculating. We have to go on principles, since these things are not explicitly revealed.

God's will is done in heaven. I suppose there would not be a move to sin.

I can only guess that is has something to do with our glorified bodies, God's presence and rule, the absence of temptation, etc.

To deny free will is problematic and probably unnecessary in light of other possible explanations.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

God's will is done in both heaven and earth. The issue is about "how" it is done--"as it is..."

This is the only interpretation that does not conflict with other clear statements of Scripturem such as, "He does according to His will in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth"; "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did He in heaven and on earth, in the seas, and all deep places" for He "works ALL things after the counsel of His own will." "Who hath resisted His will?" For He says, "I will work, and who will hinder it?"

At the present time His will is done on earth against the railings of those who dispute the reality of His absolute, all encompassing reign; it is done on earth not willingly, as it is in heaven, but by those who wickedly intend evil outcomes by their devious schemes. Nevertheless His will is, without fail, done as He "frustrates the devices of the wicked" and brings the "counsel of the heathen to nothing."

It is such a pity that there are those who profess to love Him who cannot bear the thought of His absolute sovereign reign. "Known unto God are all His works from the foundation of the world." They are known because the might of His omnipotence secures and executes all of His decree--in spite of those who deny and despise the fact that in everything, His providence works out that which He has decreed from everlasting.

 

[smaller]

Rolf, I think we have found your version of God a little less Sovereign than you think.

 

[godrulz]

The rape and murder of babies and Hitler exterminating millions of Jews is not God's will, decree, or good pleasure. A hyper-emphasis on God's sovereign will at the expense of the reality of other free moral agents (that God did decree and create by His will and good pleasure, despite the risks) in the universe is not biblical revelation and distorts His great character and attributes. Man and Satan are responsible for evil and are thus culpable.

We rejoice in His absolute sovereign reign (no pity needed). The problem is that the sovereignty revealed in Scripture is providential and responsive. The meticulous control view of Calvinism underestimates God's ability to govern free will creatures and still have His ultimate purposes come to pass (despite rebellion and complexity along the way due to man's resistance and stupidity).

 

[smaller]

Greetings godrulz

The rape and murder of babies and Hitler exterminating millions of Jews is not God's will, decree, or good pleasure.

God PERSONALLY wiped out the population of the ENTIRE PLANET save 8. He also CONDONED and CAUSED adultery and the murder of CHILDREN Mr. Pollyanna.

A hyper-emphasis on God's sovereign will at the expense of the reality of other free moral agents (that God did decree and create by His will and good pleasure, despite the risks) in the universe is not biblical revelation and distorts His great character and attributes.

Do you think it is JUST REMOTELY POSSIBLE that SIN and EVIL are ON TRIAL in this EVIL AND WICKED GENERATION. This TRIAL has NO THING to do with "freewill" but the JUDGMENT that is COMING to "sin, evil, and death.

You, as God's Child, are learning from your experience with "these things."

Man and Satan are responsible for evil and are thus culpable.

Yeah right. Your pathetic little god just couldn't get the "free will" quite GOOD ENOUGH. The BLAME you are so anxious to ASSign to others ultimately resides UPON GOD for said SHORT comings in the "freewill" making and design eh? Not a "very good" craftsman eh?

We rejoice in His absolute sovereign reign (no pity needed).

Wherein your "freewill" will come to fore and FINALLY allow you to be SINLESS??? lol

The problem is that the sovereignty revealed in Scripture is providential and responsive.

The problem appears to be with the supposed "free" will eh?

The meticulous control view of Calvinism underestimates God's ability to govern free will creatures and still have His ultimate purposes come to pass (despite rebellion and complexity along the way due to man's resistance and stupidity).

Yeah, like MEN in FLESH could EVER be AS GOD.

A "container" of "seed" is our HOPE.

enjoy Mr. P

smaller

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

The rape and murder of babies and Hitler exterminating millions of Jews is not God's will, decree, or good pleasure. A hyper-emphasis on God's sovereign will at the expense of the reality of other free moral agents (that God did decree and create by His will and good pleasure, despite the risks) in the universe is not biblical revelation and distorts His great character and attributes. Man and Satan are responsible for evil and are thus culpable.

We rejoice in His absolute sovereign reign (no pity needed). The problem is that the sovereignty revealed in Scripture is providential and responsive. The meticulous control view of Calvinism underestimates God's ability to govern free will creatures and still have His ultimate purposes come to pass (despite rebellion and complexity along the way due to man's resistance and stupidity).

The Israelites, when they were led to the Promised Land, were commanded utterly to destroy the descendants of Canaan then possessing it (Ex. 23:23; Num. 33:52, 53; Deut. 20:16, 17).

Today, this extermination of a people is called genocide.

Explain.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

God could forcibly prevent sin (which He does not), but not without removing our freedom.

WHERE DOES THIS IMAGINED DREAM OF THE FREEDOM OF MAN COME FROM?

Fallen man is called a slave to sin; A hostage compelled to do the will of Satan. The heart of man is wicked and evil continually! The desires of the heart are evil. No one seeks God...not one. We are born rebellious sinners and left to our own devices will continue to rebel for ever. Man's only hope is God's grace.

God does not force the man to sin. We, in accordance to our desires, sin freely. What is needed to change our wicked desires is a heart transplant. An operation performed by the Holy Spirit that creates in us the fear of God (which is the beginning of knowledge), the realization of our wickeness, sincere repentance, our need for the Saviour and the desire to please our heavenly Father.

Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.