Does Calvinism limit God?

[1Way]

Jobeth - So does sin exist?

If so, then you have to admit that some things happen that are not from God's will and control. Right? The definition of what "sin" is, is that which violates God's will (via His standard of righteousness and His faithful character).

So which is it? God control's everything according to His will, or sin happens which goes against His will?

???

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by jobeth

Are you saying that some Christians are better at refraining from sin than others are?

There are degrees of sanctification, not justification.

Growth/maturity= time + obedience + Holy Spirit/Word.

Some new Christians are more mature and know and love God more than saints who have warmed a pew for years with little obedience. If we live up to the light we have and walk in obedience, we will grow in knowledge and character (fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22,23). If we walk after the flesh vs Spirit and do not live up to the light we have (no prayer life, no obedience to the Word, etc.), we will be ineffective and not as mature in the faith.

The Church at Corinth is an example of believer's of varying degrees of maturity and commitment. Even in your life and church, there are degrees of growth and obedience. The onus/responsibility/accountability is based on the individual (will) since God gives us the resources and disciplines us to be mature/perfect children. It was not God's fault (perfect parent) that Israel (or Christians) spent so much time in the 'desert' resisting the will and grace of God. When they repented and obeyed and loved God and the Word they were free. When they rebelled, they were cursed. God called, not coerced them to loving Him with their whole heart. He commands, we respond (or not). It is possible (NT) to quench and grieve the Spirit, or bring joy to the heart of God. This is the pleasure and pain of God creating us in His image with free moral choices to love or be selfish.

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by 1Way

Jobeth - So does sin exist?

Sin has no "actual" existence, but sin does have "conceptual" existence.
Remember that circle within a circle that I showed you?
If "actual" reality encompasses "conceptual" reality, then "sin", as it is defined, does actually exist.

But if "conceptual" reality encompasses and exists "outside of" actual reality, then sin does not "actually" occur, but only "occurs" in the conceptual realm. In that sense, "sin" exists in the same way that "vampires", and "magic" and "illusions" exist, i.e. only in the "minds" of those who believe in them.

If so, then you have to admit that some things happen that are not from God's will and control. Right? The definition of what "sin" is, is that which violates God's will (via His standard of righteousness and His faithful character).

Yes, "sin" can be defined as that which violates God's will or as anything done in disobedience to God. But no, sin does not actually occur - except in an evil imagination, i.e. sin is in fact, imaginary, but it is "real" to those who don't know that God controls everything.

So which is it? God control's everything according to His will, or sin happens which goes against His will?

God controls everything according to His will and purpose.
See my signature for a more complete description.

 

[jobeth]

Godrulz:

Some new Christians are more mature and know and love God more than saints who have warmed a pew for years with little obedience.

1. Those who love God KNOW that all things work together for good.
2. JoBeth is one of those who KNOWS that all things work together for good.
Therefore, JoBeth (and Paul and others) loves God.

Romans 8:28 (KJV)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Are you one of those who KNOWS that all things work together for good?

 

[novice]

Originally posted by jobeth
Yes, "sin" can be defined as that which violates God's will or as anything done in disobedience to God. But no, sin does not actually occur - except in an evil imagination, i.e. sin is in fact, imaginary, but it is "real" to those who don't know that God controls everything.

:kookoo:

Isn't "an evil imagination" something that God controls? After all you did say God controls "everything".

Ultimately what you are saying is Hitler and the apostle Paul both equally followed God's will.

:vomit:

 

[Z Man]

Novice,

there is no such thing as "good" people. Hitler is just as bad as you, me, and everyone else in this world.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth – I asked you if sin actually exists, you said

Sin has no "actual" existence, but sin does have "conceptual" existence.
Remember that circle within a circle that I showed you?
If "actual" reality encompasses "conceptual" reality, then "sin", as it is defined, does actually exist.

But if "conceptual" reality encompasses and exists "outside of" actual reality, then sin does not "actually" occur, but only "occurs" in the conceptual realm. In that sense, "sin" exists in the same way that "vampires", and "magic" and "illusions" exist, i.e. only in the "minds" of those who believe in them.

Please redo the two circles thing for all of us to consider.

You said, yes and no, sin exists, but it only exists as much as an illusion exists, or any other fictional unrealistic (non-actual) concept, like vampires and the tooth fairy for example, they exist only in the minds of those who believe in them. So in the common understanding about the existence of sin, your answer is no, people do not “actually” sin, and if they think sin actually exists, then they are being unrealist because the truth is that sin has no actual existence.


So Jobeth, next question,


does God believe in the actual existence of sin?


(And please explain your answer, hopefully apologetically from Gods word. I handed you my view from God's word, and I asked you a simple question about where you get your definition for what sin is, and every since then you have been sounding like a politician or a lawyer or something, theoretical concepts are useful but we need to establish our faith on better ground.)


By the way, Jobeth, I offered you God’s word about good and evil and sin and such, have you reflected on that very much? I hope you are not holding more precious to your heart the thoughts of man when they differ from the thoughts of God.

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by novice

Isn't "an evil imagination" something that God controls? After all you did say God controls "everything".

Yes, God controls everything, even the imagination and thought processes of men.

Ultimately what you are saying is Hitler and the apostle Paul both equally followed God's will.

That is true, but doesn't God have the right to do whatever He wants with what belongs to Him, and out of the same lump of clay to make one vessel for special occassions and another for ordinary use?

We are all either vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath. None of us were made neutral, but rather we were all made for a purpose.

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV)
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God says those nations (including Germany) whom He judges and defeats were merely His instruments of destruction, like a hammer or a saw in His hand. Can a hammer pound without someone to swing it? Can a saw rend in two without someone shaking it back and forth? (Is 10:15)

Oh, by the way, if you thought the wars of the past were bad, just wait and see. It will get much worse before the Lord returns and it gets better.

Zech. 14:2-3 (KJV)
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

 

[Swordsman]

After reading this entire thread, it seems that the theme here should not be "Does Calvinism limit God" but "Does Bickering about Why God does the things He Wills".

If I understood why there are those who Jesus mentions in John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him., then I would be on the same wavelength of intellect of God.

By saying I can make a decision to change God's mind about my future in Heaven or Hell is limiting God. God doesn't change His mind. Those who come from the Armenian school of thought need to free their mind and embrace the fact that God's will preceded man's will.

I don't deserve Heaven. But by God's grace and His Foreknowledge, Predesination, Calling, Justfication, and Glorification (Romans 8:28) I am His! WOW! What a marvelous thought!

 

[1Way]

Swordsman – You said

After reading this entire thread, it seems that the theme here should not be "Does Calvinism limit God" but "Does Bickering about Why God does the things He Wills".

You seem to understand about what God wills to happen. You then said

(1) If I understood why there are those who Jesus mentions in

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.,

then I would be on the same wavelength of intellect of God.

(2) By saying I can make a decision to change God's mind about my future in Heaven or Hell is limiting God. (3) God doesn't change His mind. Those who come from the Armenian school of thought need to free their mind and embrace the fact that God's will preceded man's will.

We are not Armenian, that is so insulting to you and to us, and to God. The issue is not about historic tradition, it’s about godly truth and wrongly dividing God’s word. To compare us with Armenian’s is such a miscarriage of understanding. To us, the Armenian view is what helps lend credence to Calvinism’s most foundational error. The pagan view of God’s immutability, instead of the biblical godly view about Him not changing in His character and ways. Open view and the Armenian view both promote man’s free will and demote the more heinous aspects of Calvinism, but we stand on very different grounds and reasoning for why. Evidently you have no idea just how Calvinistic Armenian’s really are. I guess in your case ignorance is bliss, judging what you do not understand.

You suggest your personal knowledge and assurance about God’s will in such a way as to contradict your next thought, that you do not understand God’s foreknowledge and thus are not on the same wavelength of intellect of God. Knowing full well enough to judge a matter as you did, and then arguing your ignorance is a bit confusing. In the first place, you are presenting the correct godly view, in the second place, you are presenting your lack of understanding God’s understanding.

I’ll concede your second comment as godly and biblical if you mean it only in terms of amount and extend of God’s intellect. God is intellectual, moral, social, personal, logical, reasonable, truthful, kind, patient, and extremely communicative. He has went to great lengths to inform our knowledge and understanding of Him and His ways. We can not plumb the depths, but we sure can know a great deal about God, and love and trust and rejoice in our understanding of who God is.

(1) Considering the context in which you said that, you must be inferring that God preknew from the beginning (of creation?) :think: who would not believe and who would betray Him. The implication is pretty evident, but to the point, you are wrong, Jesus was not speaking about every and anyone who would not believe or betray Him, He was speaking to the 12

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

and you would have known this if you only read a few more verses. God through John is saying that Jesus knew which of the 12 would betray him, and of course his betrayer would be unbelieving, so from the beginning (of God choosing the 12), Jesus knew who would not believe and betray Him. God supernaturally knows the heart of a man.

(2) Not true, but your logic is interesting, if everything happens according to God’s will, then the only way God would be limited, would be if He did it Himself. And since God is fully in control of this so called self limiting, then it is not limiting at all. And besides, such self limiting is antithetical to the view you are trying to promote, you think we can limit God by our false teaching, yet your view holds that no one could limit God. But you may be far more Armenian than you would like to admit. We open theists are not so confused about the Calvinism in Arenianism. Stop looking to man for the truth, believe with your head and your heart from God’s word.

For example, God changes His mind because of man changing his mind, which is the reason for divine repentance. See Jer 18 1-10 the potter and the clay for God’s understanding about how errantly presumptuous you are to think that man does not alter God’s understanding, even unto repentance away from doing what He said He would do, and away from what He thought He would do.

We have the mind of Christ, we have His word making us able to even gain a full assurance of understanding even the mysteries of God and Jesus Christ, His word is able to make us fully equipped for good works, even hell bound evil men know about God having “clearly seen” even “the invisible” attributes of God!

(3) Then by that claim alone, you void the plain meaning of Jer 18 1-10 and all examples of God repenting from what He said and thought He was going to do, but more importantly, you do so without replacing that meaning with some other meaning. If God does not change His mind, as you say, then instead of ignoring the way you void scripture, explain the scripture you void. Hint, you can’t because your view is not provided from scripture, but it is clearly provided from Greek and pagan “classic” philosophy. God really does repent from doing what He said and thought He was going to do based on man’s contingent yet future actions, so the voiding or correction of meaning should happen in your false presuppositions concerning God’s (classic) immutability.

God’s will proceeds man’s will, but it does not control nor violate it. We can and do know significant things about God, everyone has the light of God revealing Himself to everyone coming into this world (Joh 1.9). He has not left man totally depraved, knowledge of God is the essence of life eternal.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

We put or faith and trust in God to save us, and the Christian faith is both substantial (solid, fortified, sufficient), and evidential (revelation, special and general, clearly seeing the attributes of God)

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

God’s word was right there in front of you, all you had to do was read just a few more verses around your “out of context” proof text.

Better luck with next time (your sword) Mr Swordsman, seems you did violence in the wrong direction :help: with your last use. Use it rightly against the enemy, not wrongly and against us.

 

[Swordsman]

Question for you: Do you believe in eternal salvation or conditional salvation?

 

[1Way]

Swordsman - Are you always so evasive, or forgetful, too busy, not interested, or what? I wrote many things and gave you scripture to adjust your view towards God’s word, you don't have to respond to them all, you don’t have to give full answers, but, if you are going to just disregard everything I said, to ask a rather contradictory and tangent question, then I hope you don't mind me objecting and hoping for better between us than full scale aversion and without a hint of a later response.

Let me demonstrate a more reasonable and direct response. I imagine this is what you would like for me to do when you write to me. (Do unto others!).

You said

Question for you: (1) Do you believe in eternal salvation (2) or conditional salvation?

The levels of incongruity and disassociation especially to my views is rather staggering.

(1) Salvation effectively means living forever with God, so any salvation is eternal. If you mean eternally secure as in OSAS, that depends upon which dispensation you are referring to.

(2) Salvation is provided by God, the condition for the way of salvation is conditioned by Him, He is eternal and faithful and true, so I guess salvation is conditional upon God and His provision for salvation. If you mean can you loose your salvation, then I’d have to ask in which dispensation you are referring to.

There, now, if you would be so kind and at least mention if you stand corrected by the wider review of the text which you mistakenly used out of context. :thumb:

 

[godrulz]

I believe that salvation is a relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained by two parties (God/man). The principles of salvation and a love relationship are independent of 'dispensations'. I believe the OT and NT support conditional eternal security (secure if one abides/obeys), rather than unconditional eternal security (OSAS). Salvation is based on grace (grounds of salvation= reason for which) and repentance, faith, continuance (conditions of salvation= not without which). If an OT believer could sever the relationship in apostasy, then logically so could a NT believer (as evidenced by warnings). Again, these are fundamental concepts for believers in any dispensation. The OT was the shadow of the NT, but still conveyed truth and similar principles.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth – “Please redo the two circles thing for all of us to consider.”

Next question,


Does God believe in the actual existence of sin?


(And please explain your answer, hopefully apologetically from Gods word. I handed you my view from God's word, and I asked you a simple question about where you get your definition for what sin is, and every since then you have been sounding like a politician or a lawyer or something, theoretical concepts are useful but we need to establish our faith on better ground.)


By the way, Jobeth, I offered you God’s word about good and evil and sin and such, have you reflected on that very much? I hope you are not holding more precious to your heart the thoughts of man when they differ from the thoughts of God.

 

[1Way]

dispensationally challenged

dispensationally challenged

If you miss God’s dispensational changes and differences, then you will be eternally confused. For example, everyone knows that God rules over man in different ways at different times. Prefall, man did not even need to become saved, he was right with God, nothing to save man from. Before the flood, man was without God’s law for government, after the flood, God instituted the law and capitol punishment, after God cut off Israel for national unbelief, God raised up Paul and started the dispensation of mystery and Grace. After the fullness comes in, God will start up where He left of with Israel. But we live in the dispensation of mystery right now. So lets look and see if there are any unusual teachings that goes with this dispensation.

Ro 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith——

Here we see that God thru Paul is teaching about a gospel and preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest ... for the obedience of faith. Wow, we are to be established by Paul’s gospel and his preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began.

If you do not know about this secret mystery that God is alluding to here, then you are probably dispensationally challenged.

But that’s ok, we all rely too much on errant manmade tradition. I wonder if there are other clear teachings that most Christian’s are clearly confused about.

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him.

Now this is interesting. Paul says again that God kept a mystery until He gave it to us, which “us” are those entrusted to Paul’s dipsensational charge, God gave the mystery teachings to Paul to give to us in the Body of Christ. That “He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him.” So, if you don’t know what this mystery never before revealed until given to Paul to give to us, then I guess you are dispensationally challenged.

I wonder if there is more on this issue?

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Verse 6 explains this mystery, but if you think it is according to the entire bible’s prophetic plan for that to happen the way it did, then you are violating this teaching, and you are probably dispensationally challenged.

Here, I bet there is more.

Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. ... 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Is that your prayer? To make yourself more bold in your effort to make known “the mystery of the gospel”? Do you think about the gospel as being something revealed throughout all of scripture, or not until it was revealed to Paul and entrusted for him to give it to us?

Eph 6:19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

I see, God says our gospel was a “mystery”, not part of the prophetic program. If you disagree with these ideas, then perhaps you are dispensationally challenged.

Maybe there is more though.

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. ... ... 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship (dispensation <3622>) from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

So, do you strive to teach men about the mystery of God concerning the hope of salvation and the riches of His glory that Paul became a minister of, that was hidden in Him and not revealed prior to Paul’s writings? If not, then you are probably dispensationally challenged.

But maybe there is more.

Col 4:2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

When you think of having your speech be seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each other, do you do so prayerfully hoping to redeem the time by speaking the word, the mystery of Christ? If not, then you are probably dispensationally challenged.

Paul specifies that he was singled out for the responsibility to give the mystery teachings to us. That his mystery teachings were never before revealed, and this includes the gospel about Jesus and how the gentiles would become fellow heirs, of the same body, in a way that was hidden in God.

And Paul is special, he was the first as a pattern for all to believe AFTER him. Paul says believe like he believes, no one else besides God says that, be like me, Paul say my gospel, no one else but God says my gospel. Consider :think:

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

God through Paul says that Paul is the first as a pattern for all who are going to believe on Jesus for salvation! If you don’t believe that Paul is your specific pattern for faith in God for salvation, then you are probably dispensationally challeneged.

To those how despise or ignore and just aren’t familiar with dispensational teachings, one thing is for certain, the dispensation of mystery and grace started through the teachings of Paul, and were not part of God’s previous prophetically revealed program. And by necessity, since the dispensation of mystery started with Paul, there was another dispensation prior to that, just as there were major changes in the OT like from not needing to needing to become saved, like from having no commandments and laws to having many, etc. same with the dispensation of myster and grace, yet another in a long line of changes that God seems fond of making at His wise discretion.

Don’t disparage what God is fond of talking about. Don’t make similar what God says are very different ways of God dealing with man. Don’t be dispensationally challenged. God’s word and God’s gospel is intimately tied to the gospel of mystery in this dispensation of mystery and grace. i.e. Don’t be like godrulz for example.

 

[1Way]

So in godrulz’ errant understanding, although God would indicate that Adam did not need to do anything to be saved, and that throughout time, God changed the requirements of faith for salvation, if we go by the common idea instead, that it's always been by faith alone, it's always been just one single gospel message, then maybe today we don't need to be saved if you just don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden. Or, perhaps the gospel of Jesus Christ and us in Him, since Paul's version was never before revealed, according to folks like godrulz, we have same gospel as any other time, no dispensational changes.

:nono:

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by 1Way You suggest your personal knowledge and assurance about God’s will in such a way as to contradict your next thought, that you do not understand God’s foreknowledge and thus are not on the same wavelength of intellect of God.

How is accepting the fact that God is all-knowing and foresees the future, but not completely understanding why He does the things He does being contradictory? Are you sure that is the right vocabulary you meant to use?

Originally posted by 1Way Knowing full well enough to judge a matter as you did, and then arguing your ignorance is a bit confusing. In the first place, you are presenting the correct godly view, in the second place, you are presenting your lack of understanding God’s understanding.

Arguing my ignorance? And you think you understand God's understanding? I doubt that.

Originally posted by 1Way I’ll concede your second comment as godly and biblical if you mean it only in terms of amount and extend of God’s intellect. God is intellectual, moral, social, personal, logical, reasonable, truthful, kind, patient, and extremely communicative. He has went to great lengths to inform our knowledge and understanding of Him and His ways. We can not plumb the depths, but we sure can know a great deal about God, and love and trust and rejoice in our understanding of who God is.

Thanks for those kind words.

Originally posted by 1Way (1) Considering the context in which you said that, you must be inferring that God preknew from the beginning (of creation?) :think: who would not believe and who would betray Him.

That is exactly what I am saying. God is not limited by no means.

Originally posted by 1Way and you would have known this if you only read a few more verses. God through John is saying that Jesus knew which of the 12 would betray him, and of course his betrayer would be unbelieving, so from the beginning (of God choosing the 12), Jesus knew who would not believe and betray Him. God supernaturally knows the heart of a man.

So you're saying God just chose the 12 disciples? What about Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Job, David, Saul (Paul)? You see the trend here. God chooses His sheep, not sheep choosing Him.

Originally posted by 1Way (2) Not true, but your logic is interesting, if everything happens according to God’s will, then the only way God would be limited, would be if He did it Himself. And since God is fully in control of this so called self limiting, then it is not limiting at all. And besides, such self limiting is antithetical to the view you are trying to promote, you think we can limit God by our false teaching, yet your view holds that no one could limit God. But you may be far more Armenian than you would like to admit. We open theists are not so confused about the Calvinism in Arenianism. Stop looking to man for the truth, believe with your head and your heart from God’s word.

Misinterpreting my comments then. This self-limiting comment is out of text. And I do not look to man for the truth. I used to when I believed my will be done and it was my good works that made me a Christian. I found out recently, that my works/agenda doesn't matter at all. Its all about Him!

Originally posted by 1Way For example, God changes His mind because of man changing his mind, which is the reason for divine repentance. See Jer 18 1-10 the potter and the clay for God’s understanding about how errantly presumptuous you are to think that man does not alter God’s understanding, even unto repentance away from doing what He said He would do, and away from what He thought He would do.

Do you not think God knew Israel would repent? When God was looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, asking them "Why are you hiding?" do you think God didn't know why and where they were hiding? Of course He did. Or why presume the effect that actually happened - they were hiding indeed.

Originally posted by 1Way (3) Then by that claim alone, you void the plain meaning of Jer 18 1-10 and all examples of God repenting from what He said and thought He was going to do, but more importantly, you do so without replacing that meaning with some other meaning.

You're taking this out of context my friend. And who does God repent too? And why? God repenting??? He must not be this perfect God we really think He is.

Originally posted by 1Way If God does not change His mind, as you say, then instead of ignoring the way you void scripture, explain the scripture you void. Hint, you can’t because your view is not provided from scripture, but it is clearly provided from Greek and pagan “classic” philosophy. God really does repent from doing what He said and thought He was going to do based on man’s contingent yet future actions, so the voiding or correction of meaning should happen in your false presuppositions concerning God’s (classic) immutability.

My view not provided from Scripture? So far all I see is your opinions, so maybe your view isn't Scriptural either.

Originally posted by 1Way God’s will proceeds man’s will, but it does not control nor violate it.

That's "precedes" BTW. Then per your comment, God's will does not precede man's will. Not my will, but thine be done Whatever semantics you wanna play, His will controls, violates, disturbs, flushes down the comode, whatever. GOD'S WILL WILL COME TO PASS - totally and completely.

Originally posted by 1Way We can and do know significant things about God, everyone has the light of God revealing Himself to everyone coming into this world (Joh 1.9). He has not left man totally depraved, knowledge of God is the essence of life eternal. We put or faith and trust in God to save us, and the Christian faith is both substantial (solid, fortified, sufficient), and evidential (revelation, special and general, clearly seeing the attributes of God)

Is this 1Way speaking here? WOW! I found something I agree with you on.

Originally posted by 1Way God’s word was right there in front of you, all you had to do was read just a few more verses around your “out of context” proof text.

Better luck with next time (your sword) Mr Swordsman, seems you did violence in the wrong direction :help: with your last use. Use it rightly against the enemy, not wrongly and against us.

Ooops. There he goes again bashing me. 1Way, if you're a believer, guess what? WE'RE ON THE SAME TEAM HERE! Stop belittling other believers on this board.

 

[smaller]

re-MARKably similar to the conversation 1way is directing to me as well swordsman.

1way has a corner on God's Word and slices and dices it AS 1WAY see's fit.

EVERYONE else's view of God is irrelevant.

and

1way gets ticked off when some observe that his "god" is re-MARKably like himself.

go figure...

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by smaller

re-MARKably similar to the conversation 1way is directing to me as well swordsman.

1way has a corner on God's Word and slices and dices it AS 1WAY see's fit.

EVERYONE else's view of God is irrelevant.

and

1way gets ticked off when some observe that his "god" is re-MARKably like himself.

go figure...

enjoy!

smaller

Exactly. That's the difference in those such as 1Way and people like you and me. He interprets what he reads in a language that makes sense to him. I read the Bible and take it for exactly the context it spells out. Romans 8:28-29 is not to be interpreted in some fashion like "Well, God does foreknow the future, but man can still make waves and cause God to change His "initial" plan."

How many times does Paul warn us in his letters "Beware of false doctrine"?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by smaller

re-MARKably similar to the conversation 1way is directing to me as well swordsman.

1way has a corner on God's Word and slices and dices it AS 1WAY see's fit.

EVERYONE else's view of God is irrelevant.

and

1way gets ticked off when some observe that his "god" is re-MARKably like himself.

go figure...

enjoy!

smaller

A lot of people have seem to come to that same conclusion concerning 1Way. At least he's consistant.