Does 1 Timothy 2:11-14 justify the sceptic?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
God's Truth
New member
I understand what you are saying. You have been verbally abused here for asking a sincere question.
exminister
Well-known member
Paul was a very bright guy and his reasoning was very persuasive. He reasoning with Greek who sought wisdom.
In this matter he didn't err. For the time it was right. In fact in strong Islamic countries it still is good advice.
Note that Paul used nature as proof men having long hair was wrong. GO expanded that thoroughly.
Have you heard of the Old and New covenant? God himself established the Old covenant but that went away when Christ was crucified.
In Timothy it says you need to rightly divide Scripture. Quote mining without considering the context of the entire book and times isn't rightly dividing.
If you just want to stay on this point then fine but I think GO and I have responded fully. From this point it will just get repetitive.
exminister
Well-known member
Abuse is some people's MO on TOL. Sonnet, if you stay you will learn who to ignore.
I think GO and I have attempted to answer Sonnet's question sincerely.
GT,
Light a candle.
How do you answer Sonnet's inquiry?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Eve was deceived and ironically Adam did not follow God and lead Eve, He followed Eve instead of God. Two different sins. Genesis 3:6
exminister
Well-known member
Not sure how that is ironic, but is either sin greater? Knowingly doing something is wrong is worse than being tricked into it. Adam did worse in my book.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
The irony is in the cultural opposistion to men leading.
Both are bad. I try not to get into the sin gradient game. One just preceded the other.
genuineoriginal
New member
Sure he is.
Paul is drawing from the customs of the Jews.
The Jews did not permit any woman to teach or even speak in the synagogues, a practice you can still find today in Hasidic communities.
Yes, I believe I addressed this by pointing out that there are other scriptures that support the hierarchy that has man as the head of the woman.
There are many churches that hold to the hierarchy of man as the head of the woman, and there are other churches that have tossed that hierarchy out the window.
The churches that allow women to be pastors have also allowed openly practicing homosexuals to be pastors.
The Catholic Church only ordains celibate men, and any of them that are not celibate are in violation of their office.
The churches that hold to the hierarchy of man as head over woman have managed to avoid some of the problems seen in the churches that don't.
God's Truth
New member
I believe the Bible tells us about the greater sin because breaking a command from God is worse than not hearing a command and sinning. However, both Adam and Eve knew not to eat of the tree, as commanded by God.
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Even though Eve sinned first by eating of the fruit, sin still entered the world through Adam, the man.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
I believe these scriptures show that Adam's sin was greater; and that man is over the woman.
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1 Corinthians 14 KJV
(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law
You could start by showing what the law says about it..
exminister
Well-known member
Please expand on this...
It means that since Paul says it is according to what the law says, one should find what the law says about it.
We know that Paul cannot be talking about women not uttering words, for he states earlier to the Corinthians that women are to prayeth and prophesieth with their heads covered:
1 Corinthians 11 KJV
(5) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
(5) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
So whatever silence and obedience Paul is speaking of, is not about women not making an utterance.
Sonnet
New member
If Paul only meant the sanction against women (regarding teaching and having authority over men) to be for the time/culture then he would not have made reference to the Fall and differentiated between the sexes.
Sure, by your reasoning we might legitimately reverse Paul's differentiation...claiming it was just for the time/culture?
Sonnet
New member
If Adam did worse then Paul's sanction against women would seem inappropriate wouldn't it?
Sonnet
New member
Okay - so you are agreeing with Paul that woman are more prone to deception? I'm not saying you are wrong - or right. Just clarifying.
exminister
Well-known member
I was talking about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :liberals:
Whoops I meant not talking about Adam and Paul.
Have you considered Tambora's post and my mention of 7 women prophetesses specially mentioned in the Bible. There were others but not specially called out. How does that square with your point? Is it possible you are viewing it with modern eyes?
genuineoriginal
New member
No, it is not that women are more prone to deception than men, there is something else involved: the hierarchy.
1 Corinthians 11:3 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. |
Why is the hierarchy important in the discussion of the woman being deceived?
It has to do with who speaks to who.
God speaks to Christ, who relays what God said to man, who relays what God said to woman.
Adam's addition to the commandment of God, "neither shall ye touch it," made it easier for the woman to be deceived, which is why God later gave the commandment:
Deuteronomy 4:2 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. |
But that does not change the fact that both God and Christ communicate through the hierarchy established, a "chain of command", and do not jump over that hierarchy without good reason, such as no man being over the woman (husband or father).
Sonnet
New member
Okay - this is very interesting. I can see your point a little clearer now. In the last clause, did you mean "such as no woman being over the man..."?
You think there are repercussions if the hierarchy is not observed - would you expound on that please? Any examples? The Anglican Church? Marriage? Marriages where the husband no longer believes in Christ?
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Sonnet
New member
You refer to genuineoriginal - but I wonder if you agree with him? He said:
"There are many churches that hold to the hierarchy of man as the head of the woman, and there are other churches that have tossed that hierarchy out the window.
The churches that allow women to be pastors have also allowed openly practising homosexuals to be pastors."
and
"The churches that hold to the hierarchy of man as head over woman have managed to avoid some of the problems seen in the churches that don't."
Your view:
"The Biblical world view on women and slavery are not like today."
By the way, I'm not trying to catch anyone out - I am genuinely interested in peoples thoughts.