Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

[genuineoriginal]

"The multitude of verses...." CleverDan

He's hiding in plain sight....odd that you can't see Him.

You are jumping to conclusions.

The Trinity is not to be found from the teachings of the scripture.
The Trinity is an extra-Biblical teaching of the church.

Belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation.
Belief in the Son of God is necessary.

Do you know who the Son of God is?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Incorrect.

No "English" word is found in the New Testament so to try to say "trinity" doesn't exist in the NT is misleading and incorrect.

The doctrine (idea) of the Trinity certainly does exist in scripture or none of us would be convinced of it.

John 1:1 translates trinity/triune very clearly among other clear and important scriptures.

There is no Trinity taught by John 1:1.

If you believe there is, then you can't count to three.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Believing the Jesus Christ who God sent is essential

I agree completely, but did you see what you did there?

 

[Lon]

The theological understanding of the Trinity has always been difficult and highly problematic.

"Arianism" was a movement within the early Christian Church that interpreted Christ as the literal "Son of God'' and was denounced by the Council of Nicene in 325 AD.

Accepting the "Arianism" interpretation would mean that Christians would now believe in lesser deity, created by the God worshiped by the Jews.

Even today the average Christian would define Christ as the "Son of God" and would be hard pressed to explain why He, indeed, was never created by God.

Although most Christians believe in the Trinity, the nature of the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is poorly articulated.

John 1:1; 1:14; 14:9; 20:28 aren't that difficult of concepts that require an equivocal understanding. It may be difficult for some to explain the gist of such further, but scripture embraces the concept without apology. Anyone denying that denies the very meaning and purpose of scripture.

Example:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Any denial of the actual words and intent of this scripture, are denying the very word of God. In my studied opinion, this scripture CANNOT be explained away (nor any other scripture). It is a very precise and clear statement: "Whoever has seen me (Jesus), HAS seen the Father."

The excuse? "One in purpose" they say. The problem is the very idea is offensive and AGAINST the statement of Christ Jesus our Lord. Such is a direct offense, not to me, but to the Lord God. They are denying His Words.

 

[Lon]

There is no Trinity taught by John 1:1.

If you believe there is, then you can't count to three.

As with Meshak, you are normally on ignore.

You can't/don't listen and so I put forth what is true and leave you alone to deal with your disdain, quarrelsome, and contradictory nature. You Arian/Unitarians have always plagued the church with your contradictory argumentative nature. It isn't because of truth that you all do this, it is because of self-inflated pride and arrogance.

You KNOW the church at large is, has been, and continues to be triune. Further, we believe scripture demands it.

That leaves you alone to deal with your cantankerous argumentative prideful disrupting nature. You do it with us, so you certainly do it with God's Word as well.

You cannot escape your own nature and you really need to take a good hard internal look at yourself. Yourself (and every other arian/Unitarian) is what your argument is all about. It really doesn't look like you are championing Christ to the rest of us. It really doesn't. You look like you are championing yourself.

"I" (ego self-interest) am not on an Arian/Unitarian website challenging them at every opportunity. You chose to be here and fight with triune believers. Think about that. You Arians/Unitarians are in desperate need of self-introspection and humility before Christ and His Body.

 

[glorydaz]

As with Meshak, you are normally on ignore.

You can't/don't listen and so I put forth what is true and leave you alone to deal with your disdain, quarrelsome, and contradictory nature. You Arian/Unitarians have always plagued the church with your contradictory argumentative nature. It isn't because of truth that you all do this, it is because of self-inflated pride and arrogance.

You KNOW the church at large is, has been, and continues to be triune. Further, we believe scripture demands it.

That leaves you alone to deal with your cantankerous argumentative prideful disrupting nature. You do it with us, so you certainly do it with God's Word as well.

You cannot escape your own nature and you really need to take a good hard internal look at yourself. Yourself (and every other arian/Unitarian) is what your argument is all about. It really doesn't look like you are championing Christ to the rest of us. It really doesn't. You look like you are championing yourself.

"I" (ego self-interest) am not on an Arian/Unitarian website challenging them at every opportunity. You chose to be here and fight with triune believers. Think about that. You Arians/Unitarians are in desperate need of self-introspection and humility before Christ and His Body.

Yep. :thumb:

 

[achduke]

You KNOW the church at large is, has been, and continues to be triune. Further, we believe scripture demands it.

When has the majority every been right?

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.

Deu 7:7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."


1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

 

[Lon]

When has the majority every been right?

Often, but note for 'yourself' why you said that. It was to over-inflate ego and self, right? Of course it was...

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.

Deu 7:7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."


1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

You are rationalizing. That means 1) "You" and 2) justifying a belief you hold by supporting it with what you want to support it with, regardless if it says what God is saying in those passages.

Note that the Arians/Unitarians are trying to argue the doctrine of the Trinity, and so are sidetracked from the question: "Can you be considered a Christian for it?"

You unitarian/arians are so distracted, we couldn't possibly trust you to interpret scriptures for us. You can't stay focused on the topic at hand.

You are on a triune website. Because it is our home-turf, I've no desire to debate with you.
I 'understand' you like to argue the matter. I don't.

This thread is about whether you can be saved or not if you reject Christ Jesus our Lord as God of your life.
Try not to be distracted and you'll listen better to God and His Word AND understand Him and it, better.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There is no Trinity taught by John 1:1.

If you believe there is, then you can't count to three.

It's a shame you dabble in falsity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are jumping to conclusions.

The Trinity is not to be found from the teachings of the scripture.
The Trinity is an extra-Biblical teaching of the church.

Belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation.
Belief in the Son of God is necessary.

Do you know who the Son of God is?

Do you know what truth is? Oh, never mind, I know the answer.

 

[achduke]

Often, but note for 'yourself' why you said that. It was to over-inflate ego and self, right? Of course it was...


You are rationalizing. That means 1) "You" and 2) justifying a belief you hold by supporting it with what you want to support it with, regardless if it says what God is saying in those passages.

Note that the Arians/Unitarians are trying to argue the doctrine of the Trinity, and so are sidetracked from the question: "Can you be considered a Christian for it?"

You unitarian/arians are so distracted, we couldn't possibly trust you to interpret scriptures for us. You can't stay focused on the topic at hand.

You are on a triune website. Because it is our home-turf, I've no desire to debate with you.
I 'understand' you like to argue the matter. I don't.

This thread is about whether you can be saved or not if you reject Christ Jesus our Lord as God of your life.
Try not to be distracted and you'll listen better to God and His Word AND understand Him and it, better.
There are a lot of people who do theology this way. I'm saying it is 'wrong.' Reading contextually, and without trying to import meaning, is the way a person that wants to be molded by God MUST read scripture. It'll change your life (because God will get to call the shots). It is a hard thing, but we are the sinners so it is best we defer to Him no matter how hard that might be.

I have never studied unitarian nor arians so I do not understand those beliefs. What I have done my whole life is read the bible. I learned about God and and his son who is the son of God. It is a very simple concept. Anything else is not simple. A simple search on Google finds the verse Son of God more then 26 times in the KJV Bible.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

 

[StanJ]

I have never studied unitarian nor arians so I do not understand those beliefs. What I have done my whole life is read the bible. I learned about God and and his son who is the son of God. It is a very simple concept. Anything else is not simple. A simple search on Google finds the verse Son of God more then 26 times in the KJV Bible.
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

So did you have a point to make? Did you find the Triune nature of God in His Word or not?

 

[achduke]

So did you have a point to make? Did you find the Triune nature of God in His Word or not?

No I see the temple of God. God is a spirit and the temple is made for his spirit. Do you not understand this?

Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

The Father dwells inside of the temple.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.


Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells IN Me does the works.



So I guess you can say I believe in the Kingdom of God or the body is a temple. Where the temple is, God Is there. So when you see Jesus you see Jesus and the Father who is inside of him.


1Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

 

[Ktoyou]

...It serves as a handy "short cut" ....

Hummm, handy short cut, huh? Well, if it is the short cut to truth, then yes, if you need a short cut?

My answer is simply, "YES"

 

[Lon]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

He isn't but you are the one offering the confusion. The majority of Christianity reads, understand, embraces, and accepts that Jesus is God. If you read correctly, you'd discover your verse is lifted from the context of conflicting prophecies. This is typical abuse and problem I encounter with those who do not read according to proper English and language principles. It is rather haphazard and egocentrically selective. We have a number of such on TOL

In John 14, Philip was Jewish/Arian. He did not recognize the one-ness of Jesus with His Father. Philip believed that Jesus and God were two separate beings. I believe this in the sense that John 1:1 explains it: "...was with and was God." It is a strange dichotomy for finite man, but there it is, plain as day and as clear: "...was with AND was God." Both/And. To read it 'either/or' is a great damage to language, scripture, and God. It is, in fact, a lie against this very clear verse.

In keeping with this, Jesus responded to Philip, who at the time didn't get this:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

I do not believe you can be an Arian/Unitarian without being corrected by this.

The question again is, "Can you be a Christian if you deny Christ as God in your life?"

This is between you and your Maker. I am not God. I bow to Him as you also must. John 20:28 Philippians 2:3; 2:10-11

 

[glorydaz]

He isn't but you are the one offering the confusion. The majority of Christianity reads, understand, embraces, and accepts that Jesus is God. If you read correctly, you'd discover your verse is lifted from the context of conflicting prophecies. This is typical abuse and problem I encounter with those who do not read according to proper English and language principles. It is rather haphazard and egocentrically selective. We have a number of such on TOL

In John 14, Philip was Jewish/Arian. He did not recognize the one-ness of Jesus with His Father. Philip believed that Jesus and God were two separate beings. I believe this in the sense that John 1:1 explains it: "...was with and was God." It is a strange dichotomy for finite man, but there it is, plain as day and as clear: "...was with AND was God." Both/And. To read it 'either/or' is a great damage to language, scripture, and God. It is, in fact, a lie against this very clear verse.

In keeping with this, Jesus responded to Philip, who at the time didn't get this:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

I do not believe you can be an Arian/Unitarian without being corrected by this.

The question again is, "Can you be a Christian if you deny Christ as God in your life?"

This is between you and your Maker. I am not God. I bow to Him as you also must. John 20:28 Philippians 2:3; 2:10-11

Bless you, Lon, for your clear and persistent teaching on the crucial fact of the Deity of Christ and the Triune nature of the Godhead. :king:

 

[aikido7]

The doctrine (idea) of the Trinity certainly does exist in scripture or none of us would be convinced of it.

A lot of "ideas" exist in scripture. But the word "Trinity" does not.

Many different and contradictory theologies also exist in scripture, but they did not exist until people began pontificating on it.

 

[Bright Raven]

A lot of "ideas" exist in scripture. But the word "Trinity" does not.

Many different and contradictory theologies also exist in scripture, but they did not exist until people began pontificating on it.

The question is not wether the word is there or not. The question is, is the concept taught in scripture?

 

[Lon]

A lot of "ideas" exist in scripture. But the word "Trinity" does not.

Again, 'no' English word exists in the scripture that way, so it is a moot point.
"No, word," and "scripture" aren't in the Bible. They are translations. To rule out the translation 'trinity' is incorrect. If you know anything about translation, at times 'ideas' are translated because there is no word for word way to convey the idea.
There are a lot of triune verses and the understanding is given in scripture very clearly. The gospel of John hammers this point repeatedly. In that sense, you are very much mistaken. Though you won't find the word 'trinity' in a concordance, it is very much a translatable idea and 'can' be found if one desired to offer that correct translation. The idea, therefore the word, is certainly in scripture.

Many different and contradictory theologies also exist in scripture, but they did not exist until people began pontificating on it.

Again, those with language skills tend to rightly understand context and interpret those correctly. There are some acceptable debate points, but that doesn't mean all conflicts are acceptable debate points. Some are within orthodox views, others are outside them AND it isn't just the majority that defines those. It is about consistent ability to read and understand language and language principles and what CANNOT be true because those principles are consistent and true. People with poor language skills and grades tend to get these wrong. That is no great problem BUT if they do not recognize their own weakness and inability, that indeed is a great problem and leads to false pride, arrogance, dispute, disruption, and sin in an area God has not gifted that one for. He/she should be about something else in life because bible teaching is CLEARLY not their gift.

 

[glorydaz]

The question is not wether the word is there or not. The question is, is the concept taught in scripture?

Exactly, and I would even go so far as to say it's there: "Godhead".

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​