Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

[Totton Linnet]

If you believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ in any way, your Trinitarian.¹

Might as well accept it.


Daniel


¹ --The only logical solution to Jesus being our Creator in the flesh is the Trinity.

This is the WHOLE crux of the matter, if they once admit that Christ is God then they have to admit that God is a plurality.

The only purpose of Unitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.


even Oatmeal in all our argufying once had to concede that Jesus Christ is God....he has since scuttled back under the carpet.

 

[oatmeal]

True, they couldn't be any clearer. Of course you have to read all those verses you have been ignoring....since Jesus was both God and man. If you only read the verses that speak of His humanity, you will never know God.

Well, if indeed there are any verses that speak of Jesus literally being "the God".

A student of scripture keeps in mind verses like Exodus 7:1 KJV, which speaks of Moses being a god and the other verses like it where God himself speaks of humans being gods because that is how God entitled them.

In John 10:34-35 Jesus himself refers to God referring to those unto whom the word of God came as gods.

Jesus acknowledges that there are humans that God rightfully calls gods.

Why?

In Psalm 82:6

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

God refers to the children [sons] of the most High as gods.

Is God wrong to do so? If God wants to call His sons gods, He is right to do so.

In Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

God refers to those who represent Him as gods as He does in Exodus 21:6;22:9

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges [elohim, gods] ; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ***, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; [elohim, gods] and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

I Peter 3:6

Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Lord in I Peter 3:6 is the Greek word kurios, used in reference not only to Abraham but God and Jesus Christ as well.

The words "god" and "lord" in that culture was used much more widely in that culture than it is in our Western culture.

With the broad use by God in referring to humans as gods, there is no reason to conclude that Hebrews 1:8-9,

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

in any way is declaring that Jesus is "the God".

Since Moses is god, and the sons of the most high are gods and those who represent God are gods and those who are to judge in God's behalf are called gods, by God himself, and Jesus himself is the son of God who represents God and judges on the behalf of God, and is a prophet like unto Moses, it is a error to conclude that Hebrews 1:8-9 is evidence of deity for Jesus Christ.

The words god or lord as used by scripture, by God himself, by that culture is a title that is used of someone of perceived or genuine superiority in wisdom or power.

It is thoroughness like this that separates the serious students of scriptures from the "me too" multitudes.

When a student of scripture takes the scripture first approach, that student will set himself apart from the "me too" multitude.

There are no verses that suggest that Jesus is "the God" or "God the Son"

Jesus is the son of God.

As a footnote

Hebrews 1:8-9

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Who are these "thy fellows" that Jesus' God anointed Jesus with the oil of gladness above?

 

[serpentdove]

Only the Jesus of scripture saves. False christs do not save (Matt. 24:4-5, 24, Ac 4:12).

 

[serpentdove]

I would say that one cannot knowingly deny or reject the Trinity and be considered a "Christian."

Your jesus does not save. linger: Your jesus resides in a wafer that your devil priests call down from heaven to be re-sacrificed again and again all over the world daily (Matt. 24:4-5, 24). Your mass honors Satan not the Lord. If you see anyone in The Church :freak: projectile vomiting with head spinning--that would be the one believer in the building--ill having to be near the rest of you zombies (Ps 139:22).

See:

No Sacrifice

 

[oatmeal]

If you don't believe in the real Jesus Christ, just as if you don't believe in the real God, then you CASN'T be saved. Confess means to agree with God, who Jesus is, and as Jesus is our God and Savior, anything less is NOT salvation.

I suggest you read John 2:19 (NIV), and as Rom 1:4 (NIV) is speaking of Jesus, you have obviously contradicted yourself.

Well for your first reading lesson, let us look a verse where Peter tells us who Jesus Christ is.

Acts 2:22

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Who does Peter say that Jesus is?

Peter says that Jesus is a man.

Not only does Peter say that Jesus is a man, he adds clarification and distinction.

A man approved of God.

Does Peter call Jesus "God" or " a man who is fully God and fully man"?

No. So I will take Peter's word for it. He spent time with Jesus Christ and God found it fit to record these words of Peter for our learning.

Peter says that Jesus is a man approved of God, I believe that.

Not only so, but Peter further describes Jesus as a man approved of God by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him

Who is it that Peter says did the miracles and wonders and signs?

Jesus?

No.

Peter says it was God that did them.

By whom did God do the miracles and wonders and signs?

Jesus a man. *

God supplied the power and Jesus obeyed the Father to do the miracles and wonders and signs. Jesus did not do his own will, but the Father's will who sent him.

Now in the midst of whom did God do those things by Jesus?

You, referring to people in the multitude present for Pentecost.

Were these people aware of what Jesus did?

Yes, "as ye yourselves also know"

Ye yourselves knew what God did by Jesus, but ye yourselves rejected him anyway.

"Ye yourselves" did not accept Jesus as a man approved of God.

Until believers believe what is written, they will not enjoy the blessings that God blessed His first son with. When we walk in the light and love of God's word, we experience fullness of joy. I John 1:4 When we are distracted we lose out on the fullness of joy

See! That is learning to read with comprehension.

Oh, you might follow up on this with my post 382 to glorydaz. Where we read and learn that the words elohim and theos are used in reference to many humans by none other than God Himself.

Once you have eaten these words and digested them, I could continue this lesson in reading comprehension with another verse.

My goal here is to help my readers to learn to enjoy reading scripture.

*(interesting that it says "a man" not "the man" Jesus was a man among many. ( God revealed to Moses that, He would raise up a prophet from among his brethren, Acts 3:22, Deuteronomy 18:15) Jesus distinguished himself from other men, not because God was his Father, (The Father fathered him, Jesus was not in a committee meeting to decide to become conceived) but because Jesus chose to completely and perfectly be about the Father's business, thus distinguishing himself by his humility and obedience to the Father, John 5:30 Philippians 2. He earned that name to which every knee should bow by his humble obedience to the Father, what a man!)

 

[serpentdove]

That there are Three Persons all God in scripture, this very clear, I don't know what sort of Christian denies clear scripture. Note that it's a trait of some cults to deny the Trinity, also, which is very bad, heretical company for any such "Christians" to be keeping.

People who believe false doctrines have a real spiritual problem, no doubt. The Holy Spirit should be leading a real Christian into all truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

That's right. God is triune. "Trinity...[r]evealed in the Old Testament: At Creation (Gen. 1:1–3, 26), In the personality of the Spirit (Is. 40:13; Is. 48:16); By: Divine angel (Judg. 13:8–23), Personification of Wisdom (Prov. 8:22–31), Threefold “Holy” (Is. 6:3), Aaronic benediction (Num. 6:24–27); Revealed in the New Testament: At Christ’s baptism (Matt. 3:16, 17); In: Christ’s teaching (John 14:26; John 15:26), Baptismal formula (Matt. 28:19), Apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14), Apostolic teaching (Gal. 4:4–6)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 625). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

....even GenuineOriginal is a triune being....body, soul and spirit.

Triune (three "persons") is not tripartite (one "person" as spirit-soul-body).

This is a monumental fallacy. And it indicates how few Classic Trinitarians understand their own professed doctrine.

Not one living human has ever been triune (three "persons") from Adam until now, and ever more.

All threeness is not Trinity/triune.

 

[oatmeal]

Triune (three "persons") is not tripartite (one "person" as spirit-soul-body).

This is a monumental fallacy. And it indicates how few Classic Trinitarians understand their own professed doctrine.

Not one living human has ever been triune (three "persons") from Adam until now, and ever more.

All threeness is not Trinity/triune.

You expressed in words what I could not. Thanks

 

[oatmeal]

That's right. God is triune. "Trinity...[r]evealed in the Old Testament: At Creation (Gen. 1:1–3, 26), In the personality of the Spirit (Is. 40:13; Is. 48:16); By: Divine angel (Judg. 13:8–23), Personification of Wisdom (Prov. 8:22–31), Threefold “Holy” (Is. 6:3), Aaronic benediction (Num. 6:24–27); Revealed in the New Testament: At Christ’s baptism (Matt. 3:16, 17); In: Christ’s teaching (John 14:26; John 15:26), Baptismal formula (Matt. 28:19), Apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14), Apostolic teaching (Gal. 4:4–6)." Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 625). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Nice list.

Where do you get three out of Genesis 1:1-3? or Genesis 1:26?

Does the word "three" appear in any verse you listed?

Does the word "trinity, triune, God the Son...." appear in any of the verses you listed?

 

[genuineoriginal]

To deny that John 1.1. is speaking about Jesus Christ is not worthy of serious argument.

To question whether the verse has been understood is worthy of serious thought.

The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us can only mean Christ.

...He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world received Him not.

Yes?

I can't believe you were a Unitarian when you were first became a Christian.

Why would you think I am either a Unitarian or a Trinitarian?

Christ is not the Father nor the Father Christ but Christ was equal with God but humbled Himself and took upon Himself the form of a servant......this also is scripture with plain meaning.

Yes.

I am shocked at how much you sound like keypurr and Oatmeal.

That is because you haven't really been paying attention to my argument.
My argument is that neither belief nor disbelief in the Trinity has no bearing on a person's ability to be saved.
The proof of my argument is that the Bible is full of clear statements that show that Jesus is the Son of God and has only a few obscure statements that could indicate that Jesus is God.

Nor is the Holy Spirit the Father or the Father the Holy Spirit....are you denying that the Holy Spirit is God?

Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is God and not something that God sends?

The scripture is simple and plain as you say, "I will pray the Father and He will send another Comfortor who will be with you and will dwell in you
.......He will not speak of Himself but what He hears that will He speak"

Yes.

The trouble with you guys is the exact same trouble as the guys who first framed the doctrine of the Trinity....you think you must understand everything and be able to frame God in words which can meet the requirements of man's puny intellect.

No, that is what the Roman Catholic church did when it formulated the doctrine of the Trinity.

Scripture if BELIEVED at face value doe meet the requirements of man's intellect for God is able to make it do so.

Many people refuse to believe scripture at face value because they have all the baggage of the doctrines that the church fed them.

It is not in the least bit difficult to understand that God is Father Son and Holy Spirit, one God.

Sure it is, that is why there have been so many debates about it in the 1,500 years since the Roman Catholic church formulated the doctrine.

....even GenuineOriginal is a triune being....body, soul and spirit.

Does that make me God?
Are my body, soul, and spirit possessing of separate persons?

Maybe the doctrine of the Trinity is not as easy to understand as you think.

What should be easy to understand is the clear words of scripture that show that God sent His Only Begotten Son, but whenever anyone tries to discuss that, the Trinity doctrine gets in the way and claims that God is His own Father and is His Only Begotten Son.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The only purpose of Unitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.

That is as stupid as saying that the only purpose of Trinitarianism is to deny the monotheism of God.

Unitarianism is based on believing the multitude of verses in the Bible that state that there is only one true God and that is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Trinitarianism is based on the disbelief that the Messiah could do what He did without actually being God.

 

[Cruciform]

Your jesus does not save. Your jesus resides in a wafer that your devil priests call down from heaven to be re-sacrificed again and again all over the world daily (Matt. 24:4-5, 24). Your mass honors Satan not the Lord. If you see anyone in The Church projectile vomiting with head spinning--that would be the one believer in the building--ill having to be near the rest of you zombies (Ps 139:22).

Your mindless parroting of the ill-informed and ignorant opinions of your Pope Gendron is noted.

 

[StanJ]

That is as stupid as saying that the only purpose of Trinitarianism is to deny the monotheism of God.
Unitarianism is based on believing the multitude of verses in the Bible that state that there is only one true God and that is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Trinitarianism is based on the disbelief that the Messiah could do what He did without actually being God.

there is only ONE God, so this assertion just typifies how little you know about Trinitarianism.

 

[StanJ]

God can answer for Himself, and the question you keep trying to get me to answer is one He is waiting for you to ask of Him.
You can protest against your display of ignorance about God's word all you want, but you have already proven that you can't read and that you rely on what your church taught you instead of what is written in God's word.

Yep...just as I thought...all words, no substance. A lot of your ilk on this site.

 

[Lon]

Slice it, dice it any way you want.

There are serious implications of denying Christ, who He is and denying Him Lordship over one's life.

It is akin to Lorenzo Snow's declaration that God was once a man who became a god. Numbers 23:19 Isaiah 55:8

That god isn't the same God who can save. He isn't the same God whom we must love with our heart soul mind and strength.

If God is a tacked on idea rather than the center of a person's faith and life, a lesser being one is not accountable to as to a god, that kind of religion isn't Christianity. Christianity is a 'deny yourself - take up your cross' kind of holistic devotion to Christ because anything less is 'unworthy of Me," He says. Matthew 10:37; 16:24

That is why Paul compares marriage to Christ and the Church and why God declares "one flesh." Without a one-flesh understanding of our connection to Christ and the imperative of Him as God/Lord, there is a significant depreciation regarding who Christ is and His rightful place in their lives.

Scripture says we must bow to Christ - Philippians 2:10-11

John 20:28 Thomas answered Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

Psalm 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Psalm 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[meshak]

There are serious implications of denying Christ, who He is and denying Him Lordship over one's life.

Your claim has been debunked over and over. You cannot find anywhere it says you have to believe in the trinity to be saved.

All your claims are denominational assumptions, not biblical. In other words, you are perverting the scripture.

It is a grave sin to add your own ideas into God's word.

 

[Lon]

Your claim has been debunked over and over. You cannot find anywhere it says you have to believe in the trinity to be saved.

All your claims are denominational assumptions, not biblical. In other words, you are perverting the scripture.

It is a grave sin to add your own ideas into God's word.

#1, this is ALL your own words, not scripture, so your bolded words carry a large degree of sad irony. You are doing nothing BUT adding your own words here. :doh: (mine were a LOT of scriptures).

#2 I have you on ignore and for this and similar reasons. You cannot use scripture to see and understand what I've address nor refute it other than assertions (without dealing with the given scriptures no less).

As for now and into the future, you are on ignore with me and do not have my ear or attention. I'm merely taking the time here so that others will understand why I ignore you and for what goodly given reason I do so.

Because of this, my post stands and you remain ignored for right and proper reasons. I am only concerned with those who wish to read God's word and understand it and Him from His explanations and contexts. Arians/Unitarians do NOT understand these scriptures nor the imperative implication of John 1:1. When you decide to listen to God (not me) then you can have this conversation with Him.

My post wasn't meant for you. God, however, does intend that you listen to His Words and pay attention. Right now, you are following Meshak still. Meshak is concerned with what 'she' thinks about what God says and so is getting second-hand information all the time. She can never listen to another authority because she is her own authority and the sad thing is that English is her second language. She should be listening to people who understand English and other languages Bye Meshak :wave:

 

[RevTestament]

Your claim has been debunked over and over. You cannot find anywhere it says you have to believe in the trinity to be saved.

All your claims are denominational assumptions, not biblical. In other words, you are perverting the scripture.

It is a grave sin to add your own ideas into God's word.

You do it. You interpret God's word the way you think it makes sense and reject the parts of His Word you disagree with such as the Book of John.

 

[StanJ]

Your claim has been debunked over and over. You cannot find anywhere it says you have to believe in the trinity to be saved.
All your claims are denominational assumptions, not biblical. In other words, you are perverting the scripture.
It is a grave sin to add your own ideas into God's word.

How would you know meshak....YOU don't read the Bible with ANY comprehension.

 

[glorydaz]

#1, this is ALL your own words, not scripture, so your bolded words carry a large degree of sad irony. You are doing nothing BUT adding your own words here. :doh: (mine were a LOT of scriptures).

#2 I have you on ignore and for this and similar reasons. You cannot use scripture to see and understand what I've address nor refute it other than assertions (without dealing with the given scriptures no less).

As for now and into the future, you are on ignore with me and do not have my ear or attention. I'm merely taking the time here so that others will understand why I ignore you and for what goodly given reason I do so.

Because of this, my post stands and you remain ignored for right and proper reasons. I am only concerned with those who wish to read God's word and understand it and Him from His explanations and contexts. Arians/Unitarians do NOT understand these scriptures nor the imperative implication of John 1:1. When you decide to listen to God (not me) then you can have this conversation with Him.

My post wasn't meant for you. God, however, does intend that you listen to His Words and pay attention. Right now, you are following Meshak still. Meshak is concerned with what 'she' thinks about what God says and so is getting second-hand information all the time. She can never listen to another authority because she is her own authority and the sad thing is that English is her second language. She should be listening to people who understand English and other languages Bye Meshak :wave:

You do it. You interpret God's word the way you think it makes sense and reject the parts of His Word you disagree with such as the Book of John.

How would you know meshak....YOU don't read the Bible with ANY comprehension.

:mock: Meshak

Three witnesses and three strikes....she's OUT.