Do you believe in predestination ?

Your argument is with 1 Peter 1:2

It was not me that said ELECT are according to foreknowledge, but Scripture says it - so if you don't like it, it just doesn't suit your personal definition of predestination.

Idolater's say-so - or Scripture's say-so...
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Your argument is with 1 Peter 1:2

It was not me that said ELECT are according to foreknowledge, but Scripture says it - so if you don't like it, it just doesn't suit your personal definition of predestination.

Idolater's say-so - or Scripture's say-so...
Nope. Now you're equivocating. I never said that the Elect are the same as the remnant that Paul's talking about in chapter 11, such that we can just consider them exact synonyms. You made that up.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Four things that concur, work together to the Predestinated according to scripture Truth Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 st God foreknew them

2 2nd He called them

3rd He justified them

4th He Glorified them

They shall be conformed to the Image of Christ, Gods Son !
 

Right Divider

Body part
Four things that concur, work together to the Predestinated according to scripture Truth Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 st God foreknew them

2 2nd He called them

3rd He justified them

4th He Glorified them

They shall be conformed to the Image of Christ, Gods Son !
Please give us irrefutable proof that you are one of the predestined.
 

marke

Well-known member
Four things that concur, work together to the Predestinated according to scripture Truth Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 st God foreknew them

2 2nd He called them

3rd He justified them

4th He Glorified them

They shall be conformed to the Image of Christ, Gods Son !
Election is based upon foreknowledge as you point out. God knew from the beginning who would believe and receive His word and who would reject His word. Those He knew would believe God He elected for that reason. The Bible clearly tells us that God saves sinners "because" of the reasons He gives for saving them.

Psalm 78:21-23

King James Version

21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Jeremiah 35:17-19
King James Version

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.​

 

Right Divider

Body part
Election is based upon foreknowledge as you point out. God knew from the beginning who would believe and receive His word and who would reject His word. Those He knew would believe God He elected for that reason. The Bible clearly tells us that God saves sinners "because" of the reasons He gives for saving them.

Psalm 78:21-23

King James Version

21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Jeremiah 35:17-19​

King James Version​

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.​

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:​

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.​

Election and salvation are not synonymous.

Isa 42:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Fact about Gods predestination:

The eventual goal of God in predestination is His Glory in Christ—note the words “my counsel, my pleasure”. His counsel from before the world was made was to glorify Himself as God in Christ. To exalt and glorify his dear Son in the salvation of chosen sinners.

Isa 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Salvation in Christ is according to His counsel and His pleasure Eph 1:11


In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:5,9


Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus Christ died for Chosen sinners, His Bride, according to Gods predestination Acts 2:23

Him[Christ, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: He was slain in predestination from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Acts 4:27,28


27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
 

marke

Well-known member
Jesus Christ died for Chosen sinners, His Bride, according to Gods predestination Acts 2:23

Him[Christ, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: He was slain in predestination from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Acts 4:27,28


27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
God chose Christ to take away the sin of the world, enabling God to reconcile the world unto Himself. That does not mean that every sinner in the world for whom Christ died will be saved and does not mean God allows Christians to form friendships with the world.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God chose Christ to take away the sin of the world, enabling God to reconcile the world unto Himself. That does not mean that every sinner in the world for whom Christ died will be saved and does not mean God allows Christians to form friendships with the world.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Christ was ordained, predestined to die for His chosen Bride, the Church !
 

marke

Well-known member
Christ was ordained, predestined to die for His chosen Bride, the Church !
Christ died for the church but He also died for the whole world because He could not justly claim the treasure in the field without buying the field the treasure was found in.

Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Which church?
Col 1:18,24

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Eph 5:23,25

23 Fo
r the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

In these reference scriptures church has the definite article, because its Gods One and Only Church, Called out People.

This Church has been predestinated, according to Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Notice Paul includes himself in this predestination.
 

JudgeRightly

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Col 1:18,24

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Eph 5:23,25

23 Fo
r the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

In these reference scriptures church has the definite article, because its Gods One and Only Church, Called out People.

This Church has been predestinated, according to Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Notice Paul includes himself in this predestination.

But Paul never mentions the word "bride"... So how could he be talking about that church being the Bride of Christ?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
But Paul never mentions the word "bride"... So how could he be talking about that church being the Bride of Christ?
I dont believe that changes the fact that the Church has been predestinated, also Paul wrote to the Church that she has been espoused to one husband 2 Cor 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
 

JudgeRightly

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I don't believe

What you believe or don't believe doesn't trump what scripture says, B57.

that changes the fact that the Church has been predestinated,

Again, WHICH church? There are at least two.

also Paul wrote to the Church that she has been espoused to one husband 2 Cor 11:2

Espoused doesn't mean "predestinated" (sic). It means "betrothed."
 

Soul

New member
In his Epistle to the Romans, St. Paul states: 'For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made comfortable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified' (Rom. 8:29-30). And again he says, 'What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?' (Rom. 9:22-23)

Much ink has been spilled by many theologians down the ages over this conundrum of predestination. The perplexity of this mystery as it relates to salvation has, not surprisingly, given rise to the heresy of "predestinarianism," of which Calvinism is one of its chief advocates. This heretical understanding of St. Paul's teaching concerning "those whom [God] has predestined..." is based on two fundamental errors:

  • the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, regardless of his merits or demerits;
  • as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace, and puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin because of the absence of grace
Translator​
Source: http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Predest.html

The following brief extract from Maria Valtorta's Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, is a Divine explanation of predestination, given by Christ to Valtorta, in response to her own interior reflections on this perplexing subject:

All men without exception are predestined to grace, since I died for all.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward.

God knows from eternity those who are destined for glory before they are born into life—that is, "predestined". Pay attention, then, for here is the point for understanding with justice the justice of God.

There are those who are predestined, certainly. And God knows them before time [even] exists for them. But they are not predestined because God, with evident injustice, gives them every means to become glorious, and by every means prevents any traps for them of the demon, of the world, and of the flesh. No. God gives them what He gives to all. But they use the gifts of God with justice, and hence they win the future and eternal glory by their [own] free will.

God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. But they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. Extraordinary gifts are not—of themselves—a sure sign of glory: they are a more severe means than others to test the spirit of a man in his will, virtue, and fidelity to God and to His Law. God knows. He rejoices in anticipation to know that this creature will reach glory; just as He suffers in anticipation to know that this other creature will, voluntarily, reach damnation.

But in no way does He intervene to force the free choice of any creature so that it may arrive where God wants all to arrive: in Heaven.

Certainly the creature's correspondence with Divine help increases its capacity to will. Because God all the more pours Himself out, as a man loves Him in truth: that is, with a charity of actions, and not [just] of words.

And again: certainly, the more a man lives as a just man, the more God also communicates with and manifests Himself to him: an anticipation of that knowledge of God which is the bliss of the saints in Heaven; and from this knowledge comes an increase of the capacity to want [will] to be perfect. But again and always, man is free with his will, and, if after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

To conclude: God knows—from eternity—those who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven. But man, with his free will, must want [will] to reach Heaven by using well the supernatural helps which the Eternal Father gives to each of His creatures. And this [must he do] even to his last breath—whatever the extraordinary gifts he has received,3 and [whatever] the degrees of perfection he has reached.

Remember: no one has ever truly arrived, until his "walk" is finished. That is, no one is sure of having merited glory, until his time has ended, and immortality has begun. — Jesus, Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans
 

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