Did cells arise naturally?

bob b

Science Lover
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mighty_duck said:
Bob,
Isn't that just an appeal to ignorance?
Admitedly, science has not completely figured out the processes that could have brought about abiogenesis. But going from an "I don't know" to "it's impossible" is just ignorance.

Two examples:
1. Before mankind figured out what caused lightning, it seemed unexplainable. It was usually attributed to the supernatural. Ignorance rears it ugly head.

2. If you are unaware of a process like Gravity, and start calculating the chances a 100 grains of sand land in a thin film at the bottom of a bucket of water, you will reach impossible odds. Labeling this as supernatural is again ignorance.

In both of your examples, something is observed to happen. Nobody has ever observed a cell come into existence except from another cell (life comes only from life).

In addition, lightning is not explained in scripture as being supernatural, nor is gravity.

In the case of the cell the appeal is to what is known about the cell, namely that it far exceeds in complexity and sophistication anything modern science has been able to devise with millions of man years of effort.

Could it be that moderns are in error when they assume that natural forces can create something as complex and sophisticated as a cell?

You really should not lightly dismiss a logical possibility when your life may depend upon it.
 

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

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bobby said:
Could it be that moderns are in error when they assume that natural forces can create something as complex and sophisticated as a cell?
A possibilty, but far from a certainty, and it's that lack of certainty that will keep science looking .
 

lee_merrill

New member
Dr. Hfuhruhurr said:
A possibilty, but far from a certainty, and it's that lack of certainty that will keep science looking .
But once you know enough, it's time to put it in the file drawer, as in the UFO, the Yeti, and the Loch Ness monster. The reason they turn to other areas is because they understand enough to know the search there is probably unfruitful. Then the question becomes, do we know enough about biological processes to conclude this about the cell?

We know a lot, as I hear, once it was thought that the insides of cells were like some sort of undifferentiated gel. The problems also increase, as Bob said, and not just a little bit.

"The old intractable problems remain as new ones come to light." (Ross and Rana, "Origins of Life," p. 26). They continue, "Those studying the problems cannot explain how the uniform 'handedness' (homochirality) of amino acids, nucleotides, and sugars could emerge in any so-called prebiotic soup. Data from the geological, geochemical, and fossil records all place impossible constraints on naturalistic scenarios. Life arose rapidly and early in Earth's history--as soon as Earth could possible support it." It was also complex, photosynthesis may very well have appeared very early, and “investigators have discovered that life in its most minimal form requires an astonishing number of proteins that must be spatially and temporally organized within the cell.”

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. See Reasons to Believe for more discussion of this, and also the above book by these authors.
 

mighty_duck

New member
bob b said:
In both of your examples, something is observed to happen. Nobody has ever observed a cell come into existence except from another cell (life comes only from life).
I think both the theist and atheist, scientist and creationist, agree on one thing. At one point in time there was no life, while later there was. Now we need to offer explanations on how this might have happened.

bob b said:
In addition, lightning is not explained in scripture as being supernatural, nor is gravity.
I did not mention Christianity in this case, but rather how a supernatural explanation is an inadequete one. Ironically, if the Bible did say that Lightning was supernatural, I believe you would reject all natural explanations science could come up with.. :rolleyes:

As for Gravity, this wasn't supposed to be of supernatural origins. It was supposed to show that ignorance of a natural mechanism, would cause you to suggest that it was mathematically impossible for the grains to settle on the bottom. Similarly, we are at this point in time ignorant of millions of natural processes. Using that ignorance to draw mathematical predictions on impossibility is folly (so called irreducible complexity).

bob b said:
Could it be that moderns are in error when they assume that natural forces can create something as complex and sophisticated as a cell?
1. Of course we could be wrong. About anything. Or Everything. So what? It is the most reasonable way to go based on the information we have now.
2. Could you be wong?
3. You're not really offering an alterantive. How did God create those cells? Could he have used nature?
 

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

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lee merrill said:
The reason they turn to other areas is because they understand enough to know the search there is probably unfruitful.
Just who are these "they" and what areas they are turning from and to? I haven't heard of any biologists, other than the very, very small handful of creationist biologists, who discount abiogenesis.

As for any opinions by Ross and Rana you might want to read the following.

Two interesting comments on some of Ross' works
Then there's this:


Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank

I think that any time the name “Hugh Ross” is brought up in public, somebody should mention *this*:

Ross’s recent book (co-authored with two other fundie kooks) is
entitled “Lights In the Sky and Little Green Men: A Rational
Christian Look at UFO’s and Extraterrestrials” (NavPress, Colorado
Springs CO, 2002).

Over several chapters, Ross dismisses, on scientific and Biblical
grounds, the existence of any life other than terrestrial. But, he
declares, there are so many reliable UFO reports that they can’t all
be mistakes or hoaxes (he calls the remaining reliable reports
(Residual UFO’s”). His “rational Christian” conclusion is something
he calls the “trans-dimensional hypothesis”—flying saucers are
actually entities that come from “beyond out space and time
dimensions” and which, although real entities, are not physical
beings. OK, so what ARE the flying saucers, then? Hear the
gospel according to Ross: “It can now be determined who is
behind the RUFO experiences. Only one kind of being favors the
dead of night and lonely roads. Only one is real but nonphysical,
animate, powerful, deceptive, ubiquitous throughout human history,
culture, and geography, and bent on wreaking psychological and
physical harm. Only one entity selectively approaches those
humans involved in cultic, occultic or New Age activities. It seems
apparent that residual UFO’s, in one or more ways, must be
associated with the activities of demons.” (pages 122-123).

Want to see how Ross’s “UFO’s come from the Devil” hypothesis
can be scientifically tested? Well, we flip to page 124 and find:
“The conlcusion that demons are behind the residual UFO
phenomenon is a testible one.” Ross points out that “according to
the Bible” demons only can attack people who dip into the occult
and make themsleves vulnerable. Ross declares, “All that is
necessary to further prove the conclusions of demonic involvement,
therefore, is to continue surveying people to ascertain who has
encounters with residual UFO’s and who does not. If the demonic
idenficiation of the RUFO phenomenon is correct, researchers
should continue to observe a correlation between the degree of
invitations in a person’s life to demonic attacks (for example,
participation inseances, Uija games, astrology, spiritualism,
witchcraft, palm reading, and psychicreading) and the proximity of
their residual UFO encounters.” (Ross of course neglects to
mention another possible reason for these “correlations” — people
who believe one goofy thing are more prone to believe other goofy
things as well.)

And why is that scientists and other researchers decline to study
Ross’s, uh, “theory”? Why, because they’re all ATHEISTS, silly:
“One reason why research scientists and others may be reluctant to
say that demons exist behind residual UFO’s is because such an
answer points too directly to a Christian interpretation of the
problem.” (page 125)

(Does this sound familiar to anybody? Is there some other topic
that Ross thinks involves the supernatural, but nobody takes
seriously because they are all atheists …. ?)

Believe it or not, though, Ross isn’t the first creationut to yammer
about flying saucers and the Devil. Creationist theologian Norman
Geisler was one of the witnesses at the Arkansas creationism trial
back in 1982. During his pre-trial deposition, Geisler was asked if
he believed in a real Devil. Yes, he replied, he did, and cited some
Biblical verses as confirmation. The conversation then went:

“Q. Are there, sir, any other evidences for that belief besides
certain passages of Scripture?

GEISLER: Oh, yes. I have known personally at least 12 persons
who were clearly possessed by the Devil. And then there are the
UFOs.

Q. The UFOs? Why are they relevant to the existence of the Devil?

GEISLER: Well, you see, they represent the Devil’s major, in fact,
final attack on the earth.

Q. Oh. And sir, may I ask how you know, as you seem to know, that
there are UFOs?

GEISLER: I read it in the Readers Digest.”

At trial, Geisler testified under oath (apparently with a straight
face) that flying saucers were “Satanic manifestations for the purposes of deception”

source



Feel free to rely on Ross and Rana, but your wasting time if you intend to impress me with their comments. Oh yes, I'm sure that in reading the above you noticed that where as science has pretty much put UFOs in the drawer, Ross has not. Good ol' ground in reality, level headed, reliable Ross. UFOs, those demon piloted crafts of evil, buzzing populated areas because . . . . . well, because that's what demons do, and making crop circles because . . . . . . well, that's what demons do. The guy is four pecks short of a bushel.
 

bob b

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mighty_duck said:
I think both the theist and atheist, scientist and creationist, agree on one thing. At one point in time there was no life, while later there was. Now we need to offer explanations on how this might have happened.

What I object to is the propaganda being foisted on the public that the subject is more scientific than it really is, creating in the minds of the unwary a myth that science "knows" that life came about through natural means, hence the Bible is wrong.

Scientists, if they hold true to their ideals, should be as interested in dispelling this myth as creationists.

Instead, scientists are silent, or in the case of atheist scientists, unscientifically outspoken in favor of a "natural" origin of life completely unaided by any supernatural element.

I am glad that you are aware of the actual situation and have not swallowed the myth.

1. Of course we could be wrong. About anything. Or Everything. So what? It is the most reasonable way to go based on the information we have now.
2. Could you be wong?
3. You're not really offering an alterantive. How did God create those cells? Could he have used nature?

It goes without saying that if God had an input in creating life, there would be no possible way we could know anything about how He did it, unless He told us..

Many Christians, and some others who believe in God, believe that God did tell us that He did it (inspired word), but as we see in scripture seems to want us to believe Him by having faith in Him and not because of any details regarding His means of doing things.

We wouldn't be able to understand such Godly methods anyway in all probability. Could one explain non-material methods to material creatures living in a material world?

There are some things in this world that people accept (or reject) through faith. The existence of God is one, and the ultimate origin of things is another. Scientists are no different than anyone else in this regard, no matter how hard they try to create the illusion that they are different.
 

Johnny

New member
There are some things in this world that people accept (or reject) through faith. The existence of God is one, and the ultimate origin of things is another. Scientists are no different than anyone else in this regard, no matter how hard they try to create the illusion that they are different.
I wouldn't go this far. It is true that neither side have any substantial evidence for the ultimate genesis of first life. However, scientists can fall back on some induction. All phenomenon ever measurable has a naturalistic explanation. It doesn't take too much induction to assume that the origin of life has a natural explanation given that it took place after the natural universe was in place. On the other hand, no phenomenon ever measured has ever shown supernatural influence. On one side there is an extremely strong trend, whereas on the other side there is no trend.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Johnny said:
I wouldn't go this far. It is true that neither side have any substantial evidence for the ultimate genesis of first life. However, scientists can fall back on some induction. All phenomenon ever measurable has a naturalistic explanation. It doesn't take too much induction to assume that the origin of life has a natural explanation given that it took place after the natural universe was in place. On the other hand, no phenomenon ever measured has ever shown supernatural influence. On one side there is an extremely strong trend, whereas on the other side there is no trend.

Yes, there is an extremely strong trend that even a lowly creationist like myself has noticed: the more scientists research cells the more they find new, intricately designed mechanisms that had never been known before.

I am starting another thread that will investigate this trend, but it is a mammoth job and my progress will be slow. Besides, I have to travel tomorrow up to Ann Arbor and also drop off my dog at the vet to have an operation. But stay tuned. I will do my best to not disappoint anyone.
 

Johnmnbvc

New member
Dr. Hfuhruhurr said:
Feel free to rely on Ross and Rana, but your wasting time if you intend to impress me with their comments. Oh yes, I'm sure that in reading the above you noticed that where as science has pretty much put UFOs in the drawer, Ross has not. Good ol' ground in reality, level headed, reliable Ross. UFOs, those demon piloted crafts of evil, buzzing populated areas because . . . . . well, because that's what demons do, and making crop circles because . . . . . . well, that's what demons do. The guy is four pecks short of a bushel.

Dude............. Demons fly spaceships

ok..maybe they dont :nono:
 

Johnny

New member
bob b said:
Yes, there is an extremely strong trend that even a lowly creationist like myself has noticed: the more scientists research cells the more they find new, intricately designed mechanisms that had never been known before.
Yes, there is an extremely strong trend that even a lowly student like myself has noticed: the cost of gasoline is rising.

Why even bother quoting me if your going to talk about something completely different? Because I said the word "trend", so you thought if you used the word trend in your post it would look like a response?
 

SUTG

New member
bob b said:
In both of your examples, something is observed to happen. Nobody has ever observed a cell come into existence except from another cell (life comes only from life).

We can still make conclusions about things that no-one has seen. As a Christian, you should not take any issue with this. :chuckle:

Scientists have just discovered 52 new species, including a new species of wrasse fish. How do you think the individual wrasses of the species got here? No-one has ever witnessed one of them being born. Could there be a supernatural being that is creating them one by one? It that the most prudent guess?


You really should not lightly dismiss a logical possibility when your life may depend upon it.

This is true, but only trivially so. There is an infinite number of logically possible propositions upon which your life depends.
 
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