Denver Bible Church & Freak

[Freak]

Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by Knight to BB

BB... do you really believe that?

If so.... that would be the most idiotic worldview I have ever heard of! Far more stupid then raw atheism.

In other words... you are professing that there is an eternal God that existed and at some point during that existence a universe created itself out of noting by sheer chance having nothing to do with this eternal God.

And then this universe evolved various systems and structures and eventually life by sheer chance. And then finally this life came aware of this eternal God even though he had nothing to do with their existence.

This is all utterly ridiculous and embarrassing.

Fellowship week is fast approaching so let me get this off my chest now....

You are an idiot.

:thumb: :chuckle:

 

[okinrus]

The Bible is our greatest statement of faith as Christians. Now let's get down to the work of what it "means" and then maybe we will see that analyzing individual church's statements of faith will be just a distraction.

A creed expresses a concise statement of faith. It tells the reader what is orthodox and what is not.

 

[ShadowMaid]

Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by BillyBob

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.



Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man'. Besides, we are all 'Sons of God'.



Jesus said that we all could be his equal in our relationship with God. That is the 'Good News'.



There's a topic just waiting to be debated.



:shut:



Maybe.



Yes, a spiritual ressurection.







Does that include the Dahmapada?



Uh oh, 'Myth Alert!'



:darwinsm:



Define 'supernatural'?



Yes, but written by men and are fallacious in many instances.



Define 'Eternal damnation'?



Oh boy, more fuel for righteous indignation. :doh:



Yuck! That sound horrible. Besides, the libs keep claiming that the world is overpopulated as it is, now we're gonna add to it with a bunch of smelly corpses? There goes the neighborhood!







The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it.

BB, the things you have just said are totally bent up. It sounds like you don't take the Bible seriously.

 

[ebenz47037]

Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by BillyBob

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.

Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man'. Besides, we are all 'Sons of God'.

Jesus said that we all could be his equal in our relationship with God. That is the 'Good News'.

There's a topic just waiting to be debated.

:shut:

Maybe.

Yes, a spiritual ressurection.



Does that include the Dahmapada?

Uh oh, 'Myth Alert!'

:darwinsm:

Define 'supernatural'?

Yes, but written by men and are fallacious in many instances.

Define 'Eternal damnation'?

Oh boy, more fuel for righteous indignation. :doh:

Yuck! That sound horrible. Besides, the libs keep claiming that the world is overpopulated as it is, now we're gonna add to it with a bunch of smelly corpses? There goes the neighborhood!



The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it.

BillyBob,

If you believe all of this, where do you place your hope? One thing that all Christians share is our hope for something better to come in the future. We look around the world as we see it and know that it is bad now and getting worse. But, we have hope for a brighter future. The Bible promises us a better future. It may not happen in our lifetimes (time is not the same for God as it is for us).

It seems to me that you've lost your hope for a better tomorrow. I feel sorry for you, BillyBob.

 

[BillyBob]

Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?


"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

 

[BillyBob]

Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by ShadowMaid

BB, the things you have just said are totally bent up. It sounds like you don't take the Bible seriously.

I don't take it literally, but I do take it very seriously.

Anyway, I mainly wrote that to make Freak's head explode. [That would be a great smilie!]

:ExplodingFreakHead:

 

[Cyrus of Persia]

Turbo,

1. The belief that Jesus is Son of God has NOTHING to do with believing was some story in the Bible "true", or not.

2. You are approaching to the Bible wearing modern glasses about "historical truth". Ancient people in times of the Bible had different concept of "truth" than we have. For them no story needed nessessarily to be "historically", or "scientifically" true. The story was TRUE, because God taught to us something through it. In that way all the Bible can be taken as the word of God.

Originally posted by Turbo


"So the evening and the morning were the [/u]nth[/u] day."

Suppose God really did mean "day" when He said "day" in Genesis 1. How could He possibly make that more clear? It seems to me the narrator is going out of his way to communicate that these were normal-lengthed days. And He reinforced that He created in six regular days when He gave the ten commandments:
[/list]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11[/list]

1. Hebrew word for "day" can also mean "certain period of time". So the fact that we translated it as "day" doesnt mean that we translated it correctly.

2. The point of the Creation story is not HOW the world was made, but WHO made the world and what is our task in this world.

Until we keep taking creation story as scientific story, we keep running against the wall. It could be scientific story back then when people had different understanding than we own. If the Genesis would be written nowadays, i'm pretty sure that it would include OUR knowledges about the origins.

 

[philosophizer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by BillyBob
Nobody, but I am wondering how God can manipulate the physical world in any way if He exists in the Spiritual realm.

Originally posted by BillyBob
I don't agree that God works in the physical realm at all. He is a spirit and only through us is He made physical.

How do you define "Spiritual Realm"? If the spiritual realm is like a parallel universe to our own, or a higher plane to our universe, that never bisects the physical realm-- if that's the case, then you might have a point.

But how do you know that's the case?

What if the "spiritual realm" could simply be called another dimension to our own universe? The physical universe has dimensions of length, width, and depth. All those dimensions bisect each other. They do so at every point.

If the "spiritual realm" is considered as a dimension of our reality, then it would bisect the physical universe at all points. A "spirit" could indeed affect the "physical world."

But that's all about defining terms. None of that can be scientifically proven-- that includes both my theory and yours. So why do you cling so hard to the belief that a spirit cannot affect the physical universe? Can you prove that assertion?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by BillyBob

Nobody, but I am wondering how God can manipulate the physical world in any way if He exists in the Spiritual realm.

God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.

I don't agree that God works in the physical realm at all. He is a spirit and only through us is He made physical.

And this thought comes from where??? The book of BillyBob???

What should compel me to give your view any validity?

I never said that they did.

Yes you did.

When you make the claim that God had nothing to do with creating the energy and matter you are in fact stating that the universe (and everything in it) created itself out of nothing. Unless of course you can tell what created it and out of where did it come?

 

[Duder]

How do YOU explain matter and energy creating themselves from nothing?

Three thousand years ago, the Alexandrian philosopher-mathematician Erotosthenes made a very convincing argument that the earth was a sphere. He even calculated its circuference to within 2 percent of the modern, accepted figure. The trouble was, very few people had the dedication to follow his argument, so his idea was not widely accepted until just a few hundred years ago.

I do not claim it is true that the universe self-created out of nothing. But I have seen how it is possible. For a couple of years my hobby was reading books about science. To understand the self-creating universe theory requires a passing familiarity with quantum mechanics, general relativity, cosmology and the anthropic principle. Neither I nor BillyBob could cram all of that into a post to a skeptical message board.

It is a very counter-intuitive idea. But it is not a stupid idea.

 

[Dimo]

Knight posted:

God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

Dimo:

In this physical universe we have choices. God wants us to make the right choices. He is suspending his power to force us until a later date. I know that God works through the natural world. As of yet I have not seen anything "supernatural".

Knight posted:

I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.

Dimo:

I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings.

BillyBob posted:

Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?

"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

And then:

I don't take it literally, but I do take it very seriously.


Dimo:

BillyBob, I agree. It seems that a lot of people have a hard time seeing truth and/or the meaning of metaphors. And so for them those of us who can see the truth in metaphorical words and phrases are not taking these things seriously.

Forgive them BillyBob for they know not what they do.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Duder
To understand the self-creating universe theory requires a passing familiarity with quantum mechanics, general relativity, cosmology and the anthropic principle. Neither I nor BillyBob could cram all of that into a post to a skeptical message board.

It is a very counter-intuitive idea. But it is not a stupid idea.

Translation: I have no idea how matter and energy could have created themselves, in fact I can't even imagine a reasonable explanation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dimo
Dimo:

In this physical universe we have choices. God wants us to make the right choices. He is suspending his power to force us until a later date. I know that God works through the natural world. As of yet I have not seen anything "supernatural".

Good for you!

Dimo:

I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings.

Let's let BillyBob speak for himself.

Dimo:

BillyBob, I agree. It seems that a lot of people have a hard time seeing truth and/or the meaning of metaphors. And so for them those of us who can see the truth in metaphorical words and phrases are not taking these things seriously.

Forgive them BillyBob for they know not what they do.

I have no problem with metaphors they help us to understand what God is really saying and in fact God uses figures of speech all the time in the Bible.

Care to discuss any specific cases?

 

[Duder]

Translation: I have no idea how matter and energy could have created themselves, in fact I can't even imagine a reasonable explanation.

More precisely, this is the best that your internal translator can make of what I said.

I find it very odd that I jump to the defence of BillyBob - but hey! One must occasionally give the devil his due.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Duder

I find it very odd that I jump to the defence of BillyBob - but hey! One must occasionally give the devil his due.

Why do you find it odd that your jumping to BillyBob's defense?

You and BillyBob have very similar beliefs.

The only thing that is odd is the beliefs that you two share.

 

[Duder]

No, BillyBob and I couldn't be farther apart. He is a greedy fascist, while I, on the other hand, am a stupid commie.

He is red, white and blue, while I am more of a UN kind of guy.

He thinks violence is a good way to solve your problems, while for me, it is the last resort.

But occasionally . . . just ocasionally, he has something very interesting to say.

 

[novice]

Originally posted by Duder
He is red, white and blue, while I am more of a UN kind of guy.

:vomit:

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?


"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

The thing you don't see is that even though I have hope for a better future, I still live to make a better world today. I just happen to put my total trust on God that He will control the future as opposed to putting my trust on man that he will make the world good without any external help.

If I seem to be overly "religious," that's all right. I don't let people's opinions of me determine my faith. My faith determines people's opinions of me. I don't live my life to win the acceptance and approval of the world. I know that, as a Christian, I'm supposed to accept the disapproval and unacceptance of the world. That's no big deal to me because I know that I have God's approval and acceptance. That's what a Christian is supposed to live for.

 

[BillyBob]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Denver Bible Church & Freak

Originally posted by Knight

God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

What evidence do you have that supports your claim?

I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.

Ah, funny you should mention logic. There is nothing logical about religion, it comes down to matters of faith. But, if you want to bring logic into the discussion, what logical reason do you have for your view that the Spiritual realm can interact directly with the physical realm? And, what logical reason do you have to support your view that God created anything?

And this thought comes from where??? The book of BillyBob???

Hmmmm, I keep hearing about the 'Book of BillyBob', but I have yet to receive a check from my publisher.

What should compel me to give your view any validity?

That's up to you, Knight. I don't think there is any danger in considering all possibilities.

I am not claiming that I am right, I am simply postulating an alternative viewpoint. Why should compel me to give your view any validity.

Yes you did.

When you make the claim that God had nothing to do with creating the energy and matter you are in fact stating that the universe (and everything in it) created itself out of nothing. Unless of course you can tell what created it and out of where did it come?

Actually, No I didn't. A possibility is that the Universe may be in an eternal state of expansion and contraction. Therefor, there would be no beginning. Therefor, it didn't create itself and neither did God.

C'mon, you can do it. Concede that I did not say that the Universe created itself out of nothing.

 

[BillyBob]

Dimo:
I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings.

Knight:
Let's let BillyBob speak for himself.

Billy:
Dimo got it right. I thought I made myself clear about that.