Dee Dee, convert me to preterism! (HOF thread)

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Dee Dee Warren

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Dear Gavin:

That finishes up the "this generation" portion of my explanation. If you are, I am ready to move on to your next question which was:

2) If Christ returned in 70 AD, when was Revelation written? Can you prove it was before this? If Revelation was written AFTER Christ's return, it seems very strange for Jesus to say, "I am coming soon" repeatedly in it (22:7, 12, 20, etc.). And yet I have always been told John wrote this book about 90 when he was on Patmos.

Revelation was written somewhere around 64-67AD. The scholarly consensus has swung both ways over the course of time, but today a great deal of even nonpreterist scholars are swinging back towards the early date. The evidence for this can be quite complex. Dr. Gentry wrote his doctoral dissertion on this subject, and his book "Before Jerusalem Fell" is a great book proving the early date.

However, in order to satisfy your initial curiosity... the best thing I can do for you is to refer you to this article on the subject:


Apocolypse Now or Later?
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Dear Gavin:

Let me know if you are ready, and then I will proceed onto your next question:

When I read Matthew 24, I get the sense that the coming of Christ is a really big deal. I read that "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places" (7). I read that "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come" (14). And most of all, I read:

"29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call , and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (29-31, cf. I Thessalonians 4:16-17).

So the obvious question is, did all this stuff happen in 70 AD, or does the version of preterism you hold to leave room for all this to happen in the future? If the former, I will need some pretty heavy proof. If the latter, how can Matthew 24:34, in context, refer to 70 AD while the preceding verses do not? I need some help here.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Thank you Knight... that sounds good. I don't think Gavin will mind.
 

Gavin

New member
thats fine. DD, I will look forward to continuing this discussion in early/mid January. Make sure and bump it from time to time. :)
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Dear Gavin:

I understand that you are going to be away for a little while. I hope you don't mind then if I respond to Lion before answering your question that was next.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
To Gavin

To Gavin

Dear Gavin:

Okay I am going to answer your next question:

When I read Matthew 24, I get the sense that the coming of Christ is a really big deal. I read that "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places"

The coming in Christ in judgment upon apostate Israel was a big deal. All of those things did in fact happen. Now think about it, how in the world can wars, specifically, be a sign? We have always had wars, which can be part of the reason this section of Scripture is so easily abused by end-times prognosticators since this “sign” fits almost any time. The fact is that “wars” can only really be a “sign” if they break out after a time of relative peace. It is interesting to note that when Christ gave this prophecy, Rome was still in the tail-end of a period of time known as the Paux Romano (the Roman Peace) which had began in about 17BC. However soon afterwards, this Roman peace began to be shattered. Josephus reports records that in AD40 there was an uprising which claimed 50,000 lives and then in AD49 another incident in Jerusalem claimed up to 20,000 lives. Also consider that frictions in Caesarea, Scythopolis, Seleucia and Damascus claimed the lives of almost 130,000 Jews (10,000 in one hour’s time), 20,000 other Jews were killed by Syrians, with thousands killed in other various places. History records that while Judea struggled with Rome, the military might of Gaul, Germany, Illyricum, Spain, and Syria conspired in Italy in schemes to overthrow Nero and Rome. As the end of the age drew near, Rome witnessed the death of four emperors within two years as the Empire was not only dealing with the Jewish uprising but with its own civil war. This period has been described by the Roman historian Tacitus with descriptives such as “disturbances in Germany,” “commotions in Africa,” “commotions in Thrace,” insurrections in Gaul,” “intrigues among the Pathians,” “the war in Britain” and “the war in Armenia.” Most certainly there were “war and rumors of war” and “nation rising against nation” just as Christ predicted.

Christ also predicted famines and earthquakes. One need not look farther than the Book of Acts to see that such things did in fact occur.

Acts 11:28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

The effects were so severe that collections were taken up to be sent to the brethren suffering from the effects (Acts 11:29, 1 Corinthians 16:1-5, Romans 15:25-28). The entire Roman Empire felt the effects of this great famine. Roman historians Tacitus, Suetonius, and Josephus record these condition in Rome in AD51, “This year witnesses many prodigies… repeated earthquakes… Further portents were seen in a shortage of corn, resulting in famine… It was established that there was no more than fifteen days’ supply of food in the city. Only heaven’s special favor and a mild winter prevented catastrophe.” History records many earthquakes just prior to AD70 in such places as Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, Pompeii, and Judea.

Okay, your next point questioned….

I read that "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come"

Well at first this seems to present an insurmountable obstacle to preterism, but if we let the Bible, and not our modern presuppositions, interpret the Bible for us, the resolution is surprisingly easy.

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul says that the Gospel was even preached to every creature under heaven at the time he wrote to the Church at Colosse and was even bearing fruit in the whole world.

Paul told the Romans that their faith was being proclaimed to all the nations and throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:5-6 - Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ

Romans 16:25-26 - Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations , according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith

When the Gospel was preached at Pentecost… who was there to hear it??

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

You may ask how this could possibly be… well even if I could not explain it, it would still be true because that is how the Bible defines “the Gospel being preached to all the nations” and the Bible must be allowed to interpret the Bible. The word for “world” in Matthew 24:14 is “oikoumene” which means the “inhabited earth” which very often in the NT simply means the Roman Empire. We forget that Rome was the “world” of that time, made up of many, many nations. This same word is used in Luke 2:1 about the census that was ordered that caused Joseph and Mary to have to go to Bethlehem. No one teaches that even the Indians on the American continent were ordered to be censused as well….but that is the same word used in Matthew 24:14 – oikoumene.

Also we must remember that the Jews were, and still are, a very colorful and passionate people. Their idioms and means of communication often employed hyperbole and exaggeration for effect. It was part and parcel of that culture. We are being horribly anachronistic when we try to hyper-literalize such things. The Bible must tell us how to interpret the Bible even if it means we must topple the idol of “literalism” that we have erected today. Biblically literal means that we interpret things literally in the sense that they were intended to be understood.

If you were to say that “it is raining cats and dogs outside,” you would literally mean that it is raining very hard. I would not be taking you literal in a proper way if I insisted that you meant that canines and felines were walloping down on our heads.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
to Gavin part two.... remember you did ask for it :)

to Gavin part two.... remember you did ask for it :)

Please keep in minds these points as we move on to your next point….

And most of all, I read:

"29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call , and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (29-31, cf. I Thessalonians 4:16-17).

So the obvious question is, did all this stuff happen in 70 AD, or does the version of preterism you hold to leave room for all this to happen in the future? If the former, I will need some pretty heavy proof. If the latter, how can Matthew 24:34, in context, refer to 70 AD while the preceding verses do not? I need some help here.

First the shocker. All of this stuff (properly interpreted) did happen in the events surrounding 70AD. You are correct that if Matthew 24:34 means what it so apparently does, then EVERYTHING, at least up to verse 33 happened within that generation. First I will deal with what I call the “collapsing universe” language of the sun, moon, and stars.

First a bit on literalism. The futurist often prides himself on being “literal” as if that were a badge of honor. Well, then give the woman at the well a prize who thought Jesus was speaking of literal water, or the Pharisees who thought that Jesus was going to raise up the literal Temple in three days, or the disenchanted wanna be disciples who thought they had to eat Jesus’ literal body and drink his literal blood and don’t forget Nicodemus who thought he supposed to crawl back into his mother’s womb. The Bible itself give rules for how to interpret it. Here is an interesting passage that demonstrates my point:

David is here describing how God delivered him from Saul, and he says,

Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry. Smoke went up from His nostrils, and devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with darkness under His feet. He rode upon a cherub, and flew; and He was seen upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness canopies around Him, dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled.

This passage, and others like it, bear remarkable similarities to the Olivet Discourse. Now, no one believes that YHWH actually saddled up a cherub and rode on it to Dodge to rescue David. No one believes that the heavens bowed down and the whole wide world shook. No one. However, these very same futurists who recognize Hebrew idiom and hyperbole in the OT all of a sudden turn daffy when the exact same language is used by a Hebrew prophet in the NT!!! The Bible interprets the Bible. Throughout the whole OT, “collapsing universe” language is used to describe God’s temporal judgments.

So asking if a text is taken literally is not the issue at all. In fact there is a cardinal principle of Biblical interpretation called the “literal principle,” which states that text are not be taken in a wooden literal fashion but in the sense in which it was intended considering the context, both textual and cultural. No first century Jew would have taken those passages in the wooden way we take them today. The question is not taking passages literally but rather Biblically.

It is the preterist position which is in fact the Biblical model. We take time texts literally which are never taken in any other way throughout the OT, which continues into the NT. We take apocalyptic imagery as what it is, symbolic imagery. The futurist turns this ridiculously on its head by defining away time texts and literalizing imagery. This is not the way the Bible itself teaches us to interpret it. By explaining away time texts, it defeats the whole test God gave us to determine a false prophet from a true one.

I ask, why aren’t the self-proclaimed literalists so literal when it comes to the time texts?
Back then to the “decreation” imagery used in Jesus’ descriptions. Again, the disciples would immediately have recognized almost the exact same words used of past judgments as stated before.

Thus proceeding, using the Bible to interpret the Bible, Jesus is clearly making an allusion to God’s historical past judgments on nations described in the OT and telling His astonished disciples that that is exactly the fate of Jerusalem. The language is identical, to things happened to ancient Babylon, Egypt, and Edom:

Isaiah 13:9-10 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine.

The context makes it clear that this is a description of a past judgment on Babylon. The language is almost identical to Jesus’ words in the Discourse, and the NAS even has the Jesus’ words indicated as being a direct quote from this passage WHICH IS A MAJOR INTERPRETIVE CLUE.

Also

Ezekiel 32:7-8When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, and bring darkness upon your land,’ Says the Lord GOD.

Again, this is a past judgment on Egypt. Did all this LITERALLY happen back then?

Isaiah 34:4-5All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; all their host shall fall down as the leaf falls from the vine, and as fruit falling from a fig tree. “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, and on the people of My curse, for judgment.

And this is a past judgment on Edom. Did I miss the dissolution of the universe back then?

Jeremiah 4:23-26 (go back to verses 14 and 16 to see the context)

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, by His fierce anger.

This is a historical judgment on Israel.

Thus… Jesus’ words are no different. He is describing a cataclysmic judgment to occur upon the nation of Israel.
Now I will deal with the “coming” language contained in Matthew 24:30-31.

We must keep in mind that the disciples were having a hard time even understanding that Jesus had to go, much less come back in the sense that futurism is requiring of this passage. Why did Jesus’ pronouncement of judgment upon the Temple prompt the disciples to ask of His “coming”?? Because they understood such an event to be the definitive establishment of the Messianic Kingdom and Christ’s acting as Messianic judge. Jesus words to them in response were a direct allusion to Daniel 7:13-14 which passage would have immediately come to a Jewish mind steeped in the OT:

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.

Notice the direction of this “coming” is not down but UP!! This is not speaking of the Final Advent, but of Christ’s coming up to the Father to receive His Kingdom and rule from heaven. This is a painfully obvious fact that is merely glossed over by many futurists.

This then makes perfect sense of Jesus’ words to the then-living High Priest that he would from that point on see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven (Matthew 26:63). Notice the “sitting” (in heaven) and the “coming” are intimately connected. This dovetails perfectly with the scenario above.

Again, remember that the disciples would have interpreted Jesus’ words in light of their OT imagery and context. Jesus had just used typical cosmic imagery used to describe severe judgment, and then used coming language from a passage speaking of His receiving of the Messianic Kingdom. The OT is replete with language of YHWH “coming” in judgment, and not once did it mean that He literally set foot on earth. For example:

Isaiah 19:1 The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Even in Revelation, Jesus threatens to “come” and visit judgment upon real historical first century churches if they did not repent, but certainly He was not threatening a bodily visitation or the end of the world (Revelation 2:16, 3:3). The examples could be multiplied, which I will be glad to do if you require.

If we were to interpret this passage the way that futurism does the Discourse, we would be forced to believe that YHWH actually sat atop a cloud, rode on into Egypt, dismounted, and then started kicking over idols. Why don’t the literalists do this? Why aren’t they consistent?

For some other passages connecting clouds and judgment, see 2 Samuel 22:12; Jeremiah 4:13; Ezekiel 30:3; Nahum 1:3; Zephaniah 1:14-15.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
ps: I did not deal with the issue of "gathering" as I think we have bit off enough to talk about for while.
 

Pandora

New member
Preterism: A Christian belief system in which some or all of the end-time events specified in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) are believed to have already been fulfilled. They were accomplished in the past, particularly during the Roman-Jewish war of 66 to 73 CE.

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology that holds that all the prophecies in the Bible about 'the last days' were fufilled in the first century after the birth of Jesus Christ. The name is derived from the term preterit, or past perfect tense. Adherents of this view are known as Preterists.

Christian eschatology concerns final events and ultimate purposes (from Gr. eskhatos, last). In Christian theology, eschatology concerns the conclusion of God's purposes, and therefore the concluding destiny of created things and especially of Man and of the Church, according to the purposes of God.

The "last things" are important issues to Christian faith, although as a formal division of theology eschatology is a relatively recent development.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
The operative word is yet.... he has been away for some time.
 

Gavin

New member
I am finally back.

I will read through the debate between lion and dd. In the meantime, these questions still stand to dd.

2) If Christ returned in 70 AD, when was Revelation written? Can you prove it was before this? If Revelation was written AFTER Christ's return, it seems very strange for Jesus to say, "I am coming soon" repeatedly in it (22:7, 12, 20, etc.). And yet I have always been told John wrote this book about 90 when he was on Patmos.

3) When I read Matthew 24, I get the sense that the coming of Christ is a really big deal. I read that "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places" (7). I read that "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come" (14). And most of all, I read:

"29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call , and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (29-31, cf. I Thessalonians 4:16-17).

So the obvious question is, did all this stuff happen in 70 AD, or does the version of preterism you hold to leave room for all this to happen in the future? If the former, I will need some pretty heavy proof. If the latter, how can Matthew 24:34, in context, refer to 70 AD while the preceding verses do not? I need some help here.

4) Finally, I would be curious what age we are in now if Christ has already returned. Is he coming a third time now? What are we still doing here? Are we in the thousand year time?
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Dear Gavin:

A good portion of those questions have been answered a little ways back?? Did you not see it?? I had said that I would wait for your comments on those answers thus far before proceeding. If you don't find it, let me know and I will find the exact page.....
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Hey Gavin... look on page 8... and let's go from there... I posted an answer to you there.
 
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