Dangers of Dispensational Rapture Fantasy

[billwald]

"What I really wanted Lighthouse to say that the Jews had the law to be saved by and the gentiles or NT belivers were saved by grace. I believe this is what Lighthouse said in his reply."

This is the Dispensational heresy!!!!! Law never saved anyone. Only God's election (grace) saves anyone.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by billwald

"What I really wanted Lighthouse to say that the Jews had the law to be saved by and the gentiles or NT belivers were saved by grace. I believe this is what Lighthouse said in his reply."

This is the Dispensational heresy!!!!!

No, it's Nimrod's mischaracterization of dispensationalism.

 

[Nimrod]

Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Lighthouse now begins to talk on the other side of his mouth and goes in circles.

Have you ever tried to nail somthing slimy on the wall? As you drive a nail through the slime, the slime moves. Well this is Lighthouse. He will continue to move in all directions never staying at one spot.

Originally posted by lighthouse
No. It's not. The Jews of the OT were not saved by the law. They were required to keep it, though. ...And it was required of them. But they did not keep it, fully. No one can.

If a Jew did not "keep" the law, did he lose salvation?

Now Lighthouse will say, we can only be saved by grace not by keepinig the law. Which I do agree, but his previous post shows that the gospel message preached to the Jews was different than the one preached to the gentiles.
Lighthouse believes the disciples preached the law to the Jews and grace to the gentiles.

Originally posted by lighthouse
Only one gospel. The dispensation of the law is another matter entirely. And Abraham was before the law, anyway.

Here goes Lighthouse circle reasoning.
He now tells us that the people from Moses to Christ lived by the law and they were required to keep the law. Lighthouse comes short, just like most dispensationalist, to say that the Jews were saved by the "keeping of the law". Lighthouse won't admit this, but this is really what he believes when he says the jews were "required to keep the law".

Originally posted by lighthouse
The verse still says dispensation, and you can't argue that.

I am not a dispensationalist, but I do believe there are dispensations in the history of mankind. I call them covenants. You don't see me bringing a goat to be sacrificed by a Levi priest every week. That has been done away with.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Turbo
No, it's Nimrod's mischaracterization of dispensationalism.

From Bob Enyart, Scofield reference Bible and other people on this forum like 1Way believe the Jews were saved by faith plus works. Can I get them to admit this? I don't think I can, they say it in their writings but then come short to actually saying it.

 

[Nimrod]

Turbo, i had listened to Bob for over a year over the internet. THat is about 5 hours a week. I love it when he talks about today's government, I hate it when he speaks dispensationalism.

As for his manuscript, I did read about the "Tree", and how Paul preached mostly about grace, I think Bob put a pie chart to show that. It was interesting.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Nimrod

From Bob Enyart, Scofield reference Bible and other people on this forum like 1Way believe the Jews were saved by faith plus works. Can I get them to admit this? I don't think I can, they say it in their writings but then come short to actually saying it.

Before you said we believe that "Jews were saved by the 'keeping of the law.'"

We believe no such thing!

If we are wrong, why not argue against our actual beliefs? Why change them to something so wrong even we disagree with them?



And while you're at it, how about addressing post #14?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Nimrod

As for his manuscript, I did read about the "Tree", and how Paul preached mostly about grace, I think Bob put a pie chart to show that. It was interesting.

Did you jump ahead to that chapter without reading the first four? :doh:

 

[billwald]

>If a Jew did not "keep" the law, did he lose salvation?

NO! The Mosiac "Law" was strictly a social contract for life in the Land and had nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Nimrod
From Bob Enyart, Scofield reference Bible and other people on this forum like 1Way believe the Jews were saved by faith plus works. Can I get them to admit this? I don't think I can, they say it in their writings but then come short to actually saying it.

Nimrod,

You are correct that Bob Enyart teaches that the Jew could not be saved apart from keeping the law,and his teaching is wrong.

However,"The New Scoifield Study Bible" says that during each dispensation man is reconciled to God in only one way,i.e. by God's grace through the work of Christ..."

In fact,the great majority of dispensationalists believe that "works" were never necessary for salvation at any time.

So please do not attempt to condemn all dispensationalists because of the false teaching of some.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Nimrod]

Jerry, I agree with what you say. Lighthouse is getting his info from Bob Enyart's "The Plot". I hope Lighthouse will think it through.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

However,"The New Scoifield Study Bible" says that during each dispensation man is reconciled to God in only one way,i.e. by God's grace through the work of Christ..."

Notice you said "New". We both know why there is a "New" one. I do agree that not all dispensationalist believe works were required.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Turbo
If we are wrong, why not argue against our actual beliefs? Why change them to something so wrong even we disagree with them?

Did you jump ahead to that chapter without reading the first four?

And while you're at it, how about addressing post #14?

What I find about Dispensationalism, is that they do not come out and say that works were required for the Jews. But from what they say, if you take the next logical step, they are indeed saying this.

I read parts of the Plot over a year ago, I don't remember if I read the first 4 chapters.

As for questions on post #14, I need to think it over.

 

[Lighthouse]

Re: Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Re: Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Originally posted by Nimrod

Lighthouse now begins to talk on the other side of his mouth and goes in circles.

Once again. I am new to the idea of dispensationalism. I do not even know if I agree with it completely. I haven't even finished The Plot, myself. So why don't you engage someone who has, and make sure it's someone who believes it.

Have you ever tried to nail somthing slimy on the wall? As you drive a nail through the slime, the slime moves. Well this is Lighthouse. He will continue to move in all directions never staying at one spot.

You're the one who weasels out of things. And you are completely ignoring that I do not know dispensationalism as a whole.

If a Jew did not "keep" the law, did he lose salvation?

No. They were required to keep it or they were severely punished, even unto [physical] death. This is not what saved them though. God's grace saved them. Romans 3:25 says that their sins were not counted against them, i.e. they were not punished by eternal seperation from God for their sins.

Now Lighthouse will say, we can only be saved by grace not by keepinig the law. Which I do agree, but his previous post shows that the gospel message preached to the Jews was different than the one preached to the gentiles.

Yup. Well, not the message, just the method.

Lighthouse believes the disciples preached the law to the Jews and grace to the gentiles.

No I don't. I don't believe the disciples preached to the Gentiles at all. Except for one or two instances.

Here goes Lighthouse circle reasoning.
He now tells us that the people from Moses to Christ lived by the law and they were required to keep the law. Lighthouse comes short, just like most dispensationalist, to say that the Jews were saved by the "keeping of the law". Lighthouse won't admit this, but this is really what he believes when he says the jews were "required to keep the law".

Until tonight, after reading Romans 3:25, I did believe that until the sacrafice of Christ Jews were saved due to obedience to the law, at least the laws of sacrafice. But I have never believed that the law saved those afterwards. Now I do not believe it saved those before. God's grace did. His word tells us so. Unless you believe it's fallible.

I am not a dispensationalist, but I do believe there are dispensations in the history of mankind. I call them covenants. You don't see me bringing a goat to be sacrificed by a Levi priest every week. That has been done away with.

Dispensationalism is the same thing. They believe just as you do. So do I. The law has been fulfilled, and sacrafice is no longer in the covenant between God and man. It is no longer required. Because the sacrafice of Christ was the final sacrafice, and the only one that cleansed sin. Prior sacrafices only reminded the people of their sin. That's another thing God's word tells us, but I don't remember where.

 

[Lighthouse]

Nimrod-
I almost forgot. Answer my question! Coward!

 

[billwald]

The danger is the "polishing brass on the Titanic" syndrome, not beinging with the state of This world and not realizing that our grandkids will have to live in it.

 

[Nimrod]

Re: Re: Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Re: Re: Lighthouse begins his double talk!

Originally posted by lighthouse

Until tonight, after reading Romans 3:25, I did believe that until the sacrafice of Christ Jews were saved due to obedience to the law, at least the laws of sacrafice. But I have never believed that the law saved those afterwards. Now I do not believe it saved those before. God's grace did. His word tells us so. Unless you believe it's fallible.

Well. Then we made progress. So in Gal 2:7 when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

The gospel message is the same. No gospel message of the law, thats condemnation. This verse is only saying that the gospel message Paul preaches to the Gentiles, is the same gospel message Peter preached to the Jews.

Do you have any questions for me?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do I have any questions for you? I asked you a question on page 1, and you still haven't answered it!

 

[geralduk]

ANY "sound doctrin" taken OUT of CONTEXT and to the EXCLUSION of ALL other doctrins will become an error!
Thus if you take 'DISPENSATIONISM' and by the 'light' of that ONE doctrin read ALL scripture by it then you will sooner or later, twist the scriptures to 'fit;' that particular 'school' of theology or else deny those scriptures that CLEARLY contradict it.

So while it CANNOT be denied by any BIBLICAL Christian that there ARE dispensations of God.
You cannot then dismiis other doctrins wrongly applied by them simply because it doed not fit your SCHOOL.

Thus it CAN be proved that there is what is called the 'rapture' but should more accurately be called the "translation"(see ENOCH)
But what is wrongly applied are those scriptures which speak of the church being the BRIDE.
As meaning that the WHOLE church will be raptured before the "great TRIBULAtion"
That theree IS a "great tribulation" is CLEARLY taught in the scriptures.
by the LORD who said if those days were not shortened then no one would be saved.
Thus ALL "who live Godly IN Christ Jesus WILL suffer persecution" and will therefore have "tribulation"
But the "GREAT tribulation" is when "it is DRY"
For GOD"who in sundry times and in divers manners spoke by the prophets hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken to us by His SON"
If then when the LORD wal;ked this earth the FIRST time it was the "LAST days" how much MORE are they NOW at His soon apearence.
THEN the days were GREEN ...........NOW the days are DRY.

"As it was in thne days of NOAH so shall it be in the LAST DAYS."
If you COUNT the 'days' of Noah and all those before him you will find that ENOCH was alive in HIS DAY.

You therefore have TWO men .
One whos WALK was PERFECT before God (ENOCH)
and one who found grace in the sight of the LORD who in the light of future events whos walk was not perfect.

"As in the days of LOT so shall it be in the LAST DAys"
There too you have TWO men.
Lot who walkied by SIGHT and not by faith for he chose his course byu what he SAW and REASONED by thew NATURAL man.
Nvertheless was "COUNTED RIGHTOUS" for his rightous soul was vexed by the ........"wickedness AROUND HIM.
but AWAY from where he was there was ABRAHAM who WALKED perfectly before God and was in a 'place' where God could tell him "what He was about to do"
Lot on the other hand was BLIND to the hour in which he lived.
yet escaped BUT WAs "SCARCLEY SAVED" but suffered loss as through fire"
For at the parting with ABRAHAM was as RICH in the blessing of God as he was.
But at the END saved but his own soul.

The BRIDE then will be made up of those "who have made themselves ready" and walk after the SPIRIT and NOT after the flesh.
and the 'rapture' is NOT an escape bu the LORD coming FOR His BRIDE.

EVERY true BORNagain child of God is CALLED unto THAT "HIGH CALLING" and have to THAT end been "aprehended FOR"
Yet even as those who were SAVED from EGYPT were "aprehended FOR" so that they might INHERIT the promise" NEVERTHELESS failed to do so becazuse "of thier unbeleif"
But if you read the account it was NOT that they believed NOTHING! but that they BELIEVED the WRONG MESSAGE!!!!!

Thus there WILL be MANY christians to intent in petty squabbles and "vain debates" who say "they are RICH and have need of nothing" but in Gods eyes are "POOR wretched and BLIND"
"MY people perish for they LACK VISION for they have rejected knolwdge" that is SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHING.
and because they are LED by MEN who in turn are LED not by the HOLY SPIRIT bu tby thier own carnal thinking they will not nor cannot get themselves READY!
For they 'believe' that as you are BORNagain then EVERYTHING is AUTOMATIC!
and they need to do NOTHING!
wHEN THE SCRIPTURES clearly TEACH we are to "MAKE our elcetion SURE"!
And to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"¬!
To make ourselves ready!
we cannot save ourselves.
This is IREFUTABLE.
Nor could the children of ISREAL by thier own strenght or work or meirt deliver themselves OUT from EGYPT.
But what THEN!?
dID THEY NOT HAVE TO LEARN "that man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY Word that proccedeth from the mouth of God"
To learn to be LED by God wheresover HE LED them.
to walk by FAITH and not by sight.
and while God had got them out of EGYPT that 40 DAYS trhoguh the wilderness was there so that GOD could gte EGYPT out of THEM!
bUT how many ALLOWED God to so WORK in them? that which was pleasing in HIS SIGHT? AND how many WERE obedient?
How then can TWO walk togther if they do not agree?

How then can the WHOLE CHURCH make up the BRIDE when in MOST things she cannot AGREE on ANYTHING !
For she has REDUCED the GOSPEL of God to the VERY BASIC of being BORNagain. for 'peace sake' agreeign to disagree with other saints for the sake of 'unity'.
But how is it that PAUL speak of those things that the CHURCH says is the be all and end all of our salvation as being the MILK of the WORD and those who are ion need of still being TAUGHT as being YET CARNAL!
and we know that to be CARNALY minded IS TO BE AT emnity with God!
and cannot receive the things of God!
Can it be then that the church that boasts itself in being the 'light of the world' is in truth BLIND to the GREATNESS of our salvation?
beifn satisfied withy the 'S' of it?
When PAUL says we are "to GO ONTO PERFECTION"!
wHO EVER HEARD of a new (LISTEN) BORN baby gettign MARRIED!!!!"!
BUT THAT IS WHAT WE ARE when we are BORNagain!
desiringf the "sincere MILK of the WORD"
but who MUST (if they would lay hold of the promise)get WEANED and begin to take SOLIDS!
who must LEARN to WALK and grow to MATURITY.
But we have made the church a NURSERY!(maybe thats why so many are falling in love with rome?)
who canot tell thier left hand from thier right.
Nor RIGHTLY divide the Word of God .
Because too OFTEN men are UNWILLING to be LED by HIM who was PROMISED who would LEAD us into ALL truth"!
Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a "unity of THE faith" unless there is a UNITY of UNDERSTANDING!
fOR FAITH COMES BY understanding THE word OF GOD!
Thus if those who CLaim TO BE CHRISTIANS would fulfill the prayer of the LORD that they might be ONE even as we are one.
Then we MUST have the MIND of CHRIST and be conformed NOT unto the world but ybe ye transaformed by the renewal of our minds.
Till we all come to the untiy of the faith!
bUT HERE IS THE RUB........
IF THE HOLY SPIRIT is not LORD of our LIVES then HOW can we be LED by Him?
If we LEAN more upon our OWN undersdtanding rather than TRUST HIM who LED us to CHRIST how do we EXPECT to be as a BRIDE to CHRIST!
For a BRIDE folows her husband WITHERSOEVER HE GOES!
and where He stops THEN SO DOES SHE.
and where He stays so does she.
AND WHERE HE GOES so does SHE.
For is He not the HEAD?
OF THE CHURCH?
WHICH IS HIS Body?

Therefore when He comes again "shall He find faith"?
That is REAL faith.
For it is clear by such a question that He will not find A GREAT DEAL of it.
But what He does find will be more precios than gold.

Thus if we seek to be in the BRIDE we must meet the CONDITIONS!
and be CONFORMED to CHRIST and not the the world.

PROOF TEXTS are misleading.
NO ONE text 'PROVES' or TESTS a doctrin.
Though it may CLEARLY state it.
To 'prove' or test a "sound doctrin"
You must use ALL the scriptures.
for God has not changed.
and you will find ANY doctrin laid out in ALL the scriptures.
In types and shadows and in plain speach. in sundry times and in divers ways.

Thus the RAPTURE can be understood properly when a RIGHT UNDERSTANDING of the BRIDE of Christ IS COME TO.

the rapture is of that BRIDE

 

[geralduk]

ANY "sound doctrin" taken OUT of CONTEXT and to the EXCLUSION of ALL other doctrins will become an error!
Thus if you take 'DISPENSATIONISM' and by the 'light' of that ONE doctrin read ALL scripture by it then you will sooner or later, twist the scriptures to 'fit;' that particular 'school' of theology or else deny those scriptures that CLEARLY contradict it.

So while it CANNOT be denied by any BIBLICAL Christian that there ARE dispensations of God.
You cannot then dismiis other doctrins wrongly applied by them simply because it doed not fit your SCHOOL.

Thus it CAN be proved that there is what is called the 'rapture' but should more accurately be called the "translation"(see ENOCH)
But what is wrongly applied are those scriptures which speak of the church being the BRIDE.
As meaning that the WHOLE church will be raptured before the "great TRIBULAtion"
That theree IS a "great tribulation" is CLEARLY taught in the scriptures.
by the LORD who said if those days were not shortened then no one would be saved.
Thus ALL "who live Godly IN Christ Jesus WILL suffer persecution" and will therefore have "tribulation"
But the "GREAT tribulation" is when "it is DRY"
For GOD"who in sundry times and in divers manners spoke by the prophets hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken to us by His SON"
If then when the LORD wal;ked this earth the FIRST time it was the "LAST days" how much MORE are they NOW at His soon apearence.
THEN the days were GREEN ...........NOW the days are DRY.

"As it was in thne days of NOAH so shall it be in the LAST DAYS."
If you COUNT the 'days' of Noah and all those before him you will find that ENOCH was alive in HIS DAY.

You therefore have TWO men .
One whos WALK was PERFECT before God (ENOCH)
and one who found grace in the sight of the LORD who in the light of future events whos walk was not perfect.

"As in the days of LOT so shall it be in the LAST DAys"
There too you have TWO men.
Lot who walkied by SIGHT and not by faith for he chose his course byu what he SAW and REASONED by thew NATURAL man.
Nvertheless was "COUNTED RIGHTOUS" for his rightous soul was vexed by the ........"wickedness AROUND HIM.
but AWAY from where he was there was ABRAHAM who WALKED perfectly before God and was in a 'place' where God could tell him "what He was about to do"
Lot on the other hand was BLIND to the hour in which he lived.
yet escaped BUT WAs "SCARCLEY SAVED" but suffered loss as through fire"
For at the parting with ABRAHAM was as RICH in the blessing of God as he was.
But at the END saved but his own soul.

The BRIDE then will be made up of those "who have made themselves ready" and walk after the SPIRIT and NOT after the flesh.
and the 'rapture' is NOT an escape bu the LORD coming FOR His BRIDE.

EVERY true BORNagain child of God is CALLED unto THAT "HIGH CALLING" and have to THAT end been "aprehended FOR"
Yet even as those who were SAVED from EGYPT were "aprehended FOR" so that they might INHERIT the promise" NEVERTHELESS failed to do so becazuse "of thier unbeleif"
But if you read the account it was NOT that they believed NOTHING! but that they BELIEVED the WRONG MESSAGE!!!!!

Thus there WILL be MANY christians to intent in petty squabbles and "vain debates" who say "they are RICH and have need of nothing" but in Gods eyes are "POOR wretched and BLIND"
"MY people perish for they LACK VISION for they have rejected knolwdge" that is SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHING.
and because they are LED by MEN who in turn are LED not by the HOLY SPIRIT bu tby thier own carnal thinking they will not nor cannot get themselves READY!
For they 'believe' that as you are BORNagain then EVERYTHING is AUTOMATIC!
and they need to do NOTHING!
wHEN THE SCRIPTURES clearly TEACH we are to "MAKE our elcetion SURE"!
And to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"¬!
To make ourselves ready!
we cannot save ourselves.
This is IREFUTABLE.
Nor could the children of ISREAL by thier own strenght or work or meirt deliver themselves OUT from EGYPT.
But what THEN!?
dID THEY NOT HAVE TO LEARN "that man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY Word that proccedeth from the mouth of God"
To learn to be LED by God wheresover HE LED them.
to walk by FAITH and not by sight.
and while God had got them out of EGYPT that 40 DAYS trhoguh the wilderness was there so that GOD could gte EGYPT out of THEM!
bUT how many ALLOWED God to so WORK in them? that which was pleasing in HIS SIGHT? AND how many WERE obedient?
How then can TWO walk togther if they do not agree?

How then can the WHOLE CHURCH make up the BRIDE when in MOST things she cannot AGREE on ANYTHING !
For she has REDUCED the GOSPEL of God to the VERY BASIC of being BORNagain. for 'peace sake' agreeign to disagree with other saints for the sake of 'unity'.
But how is it that PAUL speak of those things that the CHURCH says is the be all and end all of our salvation as being the MILK of the WORD and those who are ion need of still being TAUGHT as being YET CARNAL!
and we know that to be CARNALY minded IS TO BE AT emnity with God!
and cannot receive the things of God!
Can it be then that the church that boasts itself in being the 'light of the world' is in truth BLIND to the GREATNESS of our salvation?
beifn satisfied withy the 'S' of it?
When PAUL says we are "to GO ONTO PERFECTION"!
wHO EVER HEARD of a new (LISTEN) BORN baby gettign MARRIED!!!!"!
BUT THAT IS WHAT WE ARE when we are BORNagain!
desiringf the "sincere MILK of the WORD"
but who MUST (if they would lay hold of the promise)get WEANED and begin to take SOLIDS!
who must LEARN to WALK and grow to MATURITY.
But we have made the church a NURSERY!(maybe thats why so many are falling in love with rome?)
who canot tell thier left hand from thier right.
Nor RIGHTLY divide the Word of God .
Because too OFTEN men are UNWILLING to be LED by HIM who was PROMISED who would LEAD us into ALL truth"!
Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a "unity of THE faith" unless there is a UNITY of UNDERSTANDING!
fOR FAITH COMES BY understanding THE word OF GOD!
Thus if those who CLaim TO BE CHRISTIANS would fulfill the prayer of the LORD that they might be ONE even as we are one.
Then we MUST have the MIND of CHRIST and be conformed NOT unto the world but ybe ye transaformed by the renewal of our minds.
Till we all come to the untiy of the faith!
bUT HERE IS THE RUB........
IF THE HOLY SPIRIT is not LORD of our LIVES then HOW can we be LED by Him?
If we LEAN more upon our OWN undersdtanding rather than TRUST HIM who LED us to CHRIST how do we EXPECT to be as a BRIDE to CHRIST!
For a BRIDE folows her husband WITHERSOEVER HE GOES!
and where He stops THEN SO DOES SHE.
and where He stays so does she.
AND WHERE HE GOES so does SHE.
For is He not the HEAD?
OF THE CHURCH?
WHICH IS HIS Body?

Therefore when He comes again "shall He find faith"?
That is REAL faith.
For it is clear by such a question that He will not find A GREAT DEAL of it.
But what He does find will be more precios than gold.

Thus if we seek to be in the BRIDE we must meet the CONDITIONS!
and be CONFORMED to CHRIST and not the the world.

PROOF TEXTS are misleading.
NO ONE text 'PROVES' or TESTS a doctrin.
Though it may CLEARLY state it.
To 'prove' or test a "sound doctrin"
You must use ALL the scriptures.
for God has not changed.
and you will find ANY doctrin laid out in ALL the scriptures.
In types and shadows and in plain speach. in sundry times and in divers ways.

Thus the RAPTURE can be understood properly when a RIGHT UNDERSTANDING of the BRIDE of Christ IS COME TO.

the rapture is of that BRIDE . the SALT of the earth which when taken out from the earth gives then the devil his rope as it were and the WHOLE EARTH sinks into corruption and is ripe then for JUDGEMNENT.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Do I have any questions for you? I asked you a question on page 1, and you still haven't answered it!

SOZO asked that question and I replied.
Go look and see.

 

[Lighthouse]

Okay.