Creation vs. Evolution

[Jacob]

Right, and you lack that.

Philippians 2:11 NASB - and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 5:5 NASB - You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

2 Peter 1:3 NASB - seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

1 Timothy 4:8 NASB - for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

1 Timothy 6:5 NASB - and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

1 Timothy 6:6 NASB - But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.

1 Timothy 6:11 NASB - But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

Titus 1:1 NASB - Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

2 Peter 1:6 NASB - and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

2 Peter 1:7 NASB - and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

2 Peter 3:11 NASB - Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

Zechariah 4:6 NASB - Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Hebrews 5:14 NASB - But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

 

[Jacob]

Right, and you lack that. You may try to compensate for that by trying to attach yourself to "Biblical" principles, but your attempts at that are only as good as the person trying it.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[noguru]

Philippians 2:11 NASB - and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 5:5 NASB - You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

2 Corinthians 12:9 NASB - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

2 Peter 1:3 NASB - seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

1 Timothy 4:8 NASB - for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

1 Timothy 6:5 NASB - and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

1 Timothy 6:6 NASB - But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.

1 Timothy 6:11 NASB - But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

Titus 1:1 NASB - Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

2 Peter 1:6 NASB - and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

2 Peter 1:7 NASB - and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

2 Peter 3:11 NASB - Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

Zechariah 4:6 NASB - Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Hebrews 5:14 NASB - But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Quoting the Bible does not negate my point. If you are talking about salvation, then very little discipline is needed. If you are talking about valuable research and communicating that with others, then you will need much more discipline than is required for the faith that brings salvation.

Though I do believe that true faith, if followed with courage and integrity will eventually lead (some quickly, some slowly) to a more disciplined view of all aspects of life. Of course you do not reflect that kind of faith, at least judging from the things you have posted here.

 

[Jacob]

Quoting the Bible does not negate my point. If you are talking about salvation, then very little discipline is needed. If you are talking about valuable research and communicating that with others, then you will need much more discipline than is required for the faith that brings salvation.

Though I do believe that true faith, if followed with courage and integrity will eventually lead (some quickly, some slowly) to a more disciplined view of all aspects of life. Of course you do not reflect that kind of faith, at least judging from the things you have posted here.

We all have areas of strength and weakness. Biology is not one of mine.

 

[noguru]

We all have areas of strength and weakness. Biology is not one of mine.

:think:

So tell me, what do you think I should surmise from that admission at this point?

I think you might want to add simple logic to your list of weaknesses as well.

 

[Jacob]

:think:

So tell me, what do you think I should surmise from that admission at this point?

That if you conclude evolution is true from Biology, which is the discipline or study of life (in particular, life structures)... that if this is your primary study and it is not mine then we may be at an impasse according to your strength vs. mine.

I personally do not yet have an area of expertise. I'm still learning, and still a student.

 

[Jacob]

I think you might want to add simple logic to your list of weaknesses as well.

Why do you say this?

 

[noguru]

That if you conclude evolution is true from Biology, which is the discipline or study of life (in particular, life structures)... that if this is your primary study and it is not mine then we may be at an impasse according to your strength vs. mine.

I personally do not yet have an area of expertise. I'm still learning, and still a student.

I am not daunted by any impasse I have yet come across in life. I love all people freely, whether or not I agree with them. Here is a quote from Norman Maclean that I think sums up my sentiments on this matter;

“Each one of us here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and ask the same question: We are willing to help, Lord, but what, if anything, is needed? For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”

― Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It and Other Stories

Just so that you know, biology is not my primary area of research. Although it is one of my great interests. I have been an ardent student of philosophy mostly. But with many other disciplines like history, science, music, culture, literature... within that broader umbrella.

 

[noguru]

Why do you say this?

Because earlier you offered a contribution that would require a rather in depth understanding of biology. Then when it was pointed out how what you included was not at all a comprehensive enough treatment to actually contribute something of value to this discussion, you retreat to a "Biology is not my area of expertise." response. This demonstrates that you either lack discipline or an understanding of simple logic. Since you claim that you have discipline, that leaves simple logic as the only remaining factor.

 

[Jacob]

I am not daunted by any impasse I have yet come across in life. I love all people freely, whether or not I agree with them. Here is a quote from Norman Maclean that I think sums up my sentiments on this matter;



Just so that you know, biology is not my primary area of research. Although it is one of my great interests. I have been an ardent student of philosophy mostly. But with many other disciplines like history, science, music, culture, literature... within that broader umbrella.

I know people have philosophical inclinations, leanings, and predispositions in science. As for humanism, sympathy makes sense not as a fundamental human need but as a basis for morality without God. In Christianity true needs are met and God gives us our desires in keeping with His word when we are faithful to Him. Where the rubber meets the road is that God has by His Spirit gifted each of us differently, though some of us have overlap in areas of gifting... but that God knows how to best mend a broken heart or heal a broken soul.

 

[Jacob]

Because earlier you offered a contribution that would require a rather in depth understanding of biology. Then when it was pointed out how what you included was not at all a comprehensive enough treatment to actually contribute something of value to this discussion, you retreat to a "Biology is not my area of expertise." response. This demonstrates that you either lack discipline or an understanding of simple logic. Since you claim that you have discipline, that leaves simple logic as the only remaining factor.

Actually, I am just admitting I have commented on something that is an interest of mine, but not from what I have studied in school. I arrived at knowledge of this specific Eve of science by listening after developing an interest in Physics and Astronomy. I am also interested in mathematical probabilities, social sciences, and genetics, as they pertain to apologetics in particular, but my current pursuit of a degree involves computers and science, but not science in any way relating to genetics (though we have discussed DNA and RNA sequences in a couple of the courses I have taken of late).

It has been said that if you study the genes across cultures (again this is separate from my study) you will find one woman to begin the lineage. But others say no you will find a tendancy toward one but that there is probably four because Noah and his three sons each had a wife and that through these 8 people the earth was repopulated.

 

[noguru]

I know people have philosophical inclinations, leanings, and predispositions in science. As for humanism, sympathy makes sense not as a fundamental human need but as a basis for morality without God. In Christianity true needs are met and God gives us our desires in keeping with His word when we are faithful to Him. Where the rubber meets the road is that God has by His Spirit gifted each of us differently, though some of us have overlap in areas of gifting... but that God knows how to best mend a broken heart or heal a broken soul.

Now this is a strong and accurate contribution. But again it is not science.

I do not give credit to myself for my abilities, though I cannot escape the reality that all effort from me originates from my perspective of life. Even when I was agnostic I gave credit to nature alone for my strengths. I never dwelt too much on my weaknesses, because weaknesses are often just the other side of the coin of strength. It is with discipline that I learn how to use that currency optimally. When I was agnostic my perspective, which is the impetus for my efforts, was inconsistent (probably only about 70%). As the result of returning to a theistic belief, I have been able to put that percentage up close to 99%.

I did not return to theism because of a desire for salvation. And I am not even sure that what men say about salvation is actually what God really meant. And since that is in God's hands and in regard to the next world, I do not worry much about that now.

 

[Jacob]

Now this is a strong and accurate contribution. But again it is not science.

I do not give credit to myself for my abilities, though I cannot escape the reality that all effort from me originates from my perspective of life. Even when I was agnostic I gave credit to nature alone for my strengths. I never dwelt too much on my weaknesses, because weaknesses are often just the other side of the coin of strength. It is with discipline that I learn how to use that currency optimally. When I was agnostic my perspective, which is the impetus for my efforts, was inconsistent (probably only about 70%). As the result of returning to a theistic belief, I have been able to put that percentage up close to 99%.

I did not return to theism because of a desire for salvation. And I am not even sure that what men say about salvation is actually what God really meant. And since that is in God's hands and in regard to the next world, I do not worry much about that now.

I would like to talk with you more about salvation whether you believe you have assurance of salvation or not, because it is important to God. He cares about our destiny, and not just our eternal destiny but the life we live now. Salvation is very important, and it is important to examine what God has to say about it in His word the Bible as well as what individuals say. We can start another thread or pm if you would like. I'm saying this because you sound like you can put it off until after you die, which according to the Bible you cannot.

 

[noguru]

Actually, I am just admitting I have commented on something that is an interest of mine, but not from what I have studied in school. I arrived at knowledge of this specific Eve of science by listening after developing an interest in Physics and Astronomy. I am also interested in mathematical probabilities, social sciences, and genetics, as they pertain to apologetics in particular, but my current pursuit of a degree involves computers and science, but not science in any way relating to genetics (though we have discussed DNA and RNA sequences in a couple of the courses I have taken of late).

I was also educated in computers back in the 80s. I was a business application programmer and interface specialist for 16 years.

It has been said that if you study the genes across cultures (again this is separate from my study) you will find one woman to begin the lineage. But others say no you will find a tendancy toward one but that there is probably four because Noah and his three sons each had a wife and that through these 8 people the earth was repopulated.

I think you need to do a little more research on this subject, and try to look at sources that are not restricted to a specific theological interpretation (YEC/OEC or any other religiously convicted people unwilling to see the real story) in order to get an accurate view of this research. That is if you are truly interested in getting it straight from the horses mouth.

 

[noguru]

I would like to talk with you more about salvation whether you believe you have assurance of salvation or not, because it is important to God. He cares about our destiny, and not just our eternal destiny but the life we live now. Salvation is very important, and it is important to examine what God has to say about it in His word the Bible as well as what individuals say. We can start another thread or pm if you would like. I'm saying this because you sound like you can put it off until after you die, which according to the Bible you cannot.

I am not concerned with any assurance of salvation. I leave that in God's hands. There is nothing I can do to earn it anyway. I have decided to "let the dead bury the dead". All I can do is live this life to the best of my ability. And my faith in God certainly lets me do that.

Also I am not interested in having you try to convert me to your specific brand of theology. I think you can tell by my screen name that I do not look to any humans as gurus on this subject. And judging from the current bent you are on, I certainly will not be intimidated by your empty threats of losing my salvation as a way to blind me from the current reality around me.

 

[Jacob]

I was also educated in computers back in the 80s. I was a business application programmer and interface specialist for 16 years.

I can do some programming, but also I have spent time with engineering courses as well.

I think you need to do a little more research on this subject, and try to look at sources that are not restricted to a specific theological interpretation (YEC/OEC or any other religiously convicted people unwilling to see the real story) in order to get an accurate view of this research. That is if you are truly interested in getting it straight from the horses mouth.

That sounds interesting. Thanks for including OEC and not just YEC. I think I have heard about it from both, but maybe more from OEC.

 

[Jacob]

I am not concerned with any assurance of salvation. I leave that in God's hands.

In 1 John we learn a person can have assurance of salvation here and now. We don't have to wait to know if we are saved. And it is of utmost importance.

There is nothing I can do to earn it anyway.

That's right, you can't earn it. That is what the Bible says. But the Bible also says not everyone has eternal life.

I have decided to "let the dead bury the dead". All I can do is live this life to the best of my ability. And my faith in God certainly lets me do that.

Also I am not interested in having you try to convert me to your specific brand of theology. I think you can tell by my screen name that I do not look to any humans as gurus on this subject. And judging from the current bent you are on, I certainly will not be intimidated by your empty threats of losing my salvation as a way to blind me from the current reality around me.

I am just a Christian. I believe the Bible. I believe God and I believe those God has used to pen the word of God for us to read. I have said nothing about your losing your salvation. Only that you can be assured of having it, and so can those you talk with after you have become assured of this truth from the Bible yourself. Some unbelievers who say they are Christians have been taught assurance of salvation, and they are therefore believing a lie... thinking themselves saved. But I don't think you have believed this lie.

 

[noguru]

I can do some programming, but also I have spent time with engineering courses as well.

Interesting. I had only a little education on the engineering side. But in my profession I ran across EBCIDIC, machine language, hexadecimal, binary code... in my attempts at creating smooth interfaces between different platforms. I also understand the basics of storage, RAM, and processors.

That sounds interesting. Thanks for including OEC and not just YEC. I think I have heard about it from both, but maybe more from OEC.

For your own good, you should investigate these things thoroughly. You also should not reject them simply because they do not come out under a banner of Christianity. God does not want us to be blind to what non-Christians/non-Jews contribute. If you truly have faith in God, you should not be afraid of any knowledge.

What I have found is that people who actually lack faith come out waving their banner of "faith" rather loudly and in public in an attempt to compensate for their own lack of inner personal faith. You seem to be following what these people have been offering simply because the banner they are waving. My only advice is to not let yourself be deceived.

 

[noguru]

In 1 John we learn a person can have assurance of salvation here and now. We don't have to wait to know if we are saved. And it is of utmost importance.
That's right, you can't earn it. That is what the Bible says. But the Bible also says not everyone has eternal life.
I am just a Christian. I believe the Bible. I believe God and I believe those God has used to pen the word of God for us to read. I have said nothing about your losing your salvation. Only that you can be assured of having it, and so can those you talk with after you have become assured of this truth from the Bible yourself. Some unbelievers who say they are Christians have been taught assurance of salvation, and they are therefore believing a lie... thinking themselves saved. But I don't think you have believed this lie.

I am going to repeat myself one more time if you did not catch it the first time. I do not not need assurance of salvation from you. Got it?

 

[Jacob]

I am going to repeat myself one more time if you did not catch it the first time. I do not not need assurance of salvation from you. Got it?

I get it. But I can't give you assurance of salvation. Only God can do that.

1 John 5:13 NASB - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.