Creation vs. Evolution

[Yorzhik]

Didn't you think I'd see what you did there? YOU referred to information entropy while in your quote Weaver discusses the useful information in a deliberate communication (not genetics at all). As you know, the information entropy you keep referring to does not indicate usefulness, so EITHER you are talking about the entropy without reference to usefulness, OR you are referring to the usefulness of the information in getting naturally selected outside of the Shannon theory.

Enough dissembling: which one are you referring to?

Finally. A good question.

Information entropy takes place at the transmission phase of communication of the cell because communication in the cell is a chemical process. That is also to say that the 2nd law is what insures that information entropy takes place.

Another way to say it is that entropy causes information entropy.

I answered ALL your questions line by line. This question was asked and answered a long time ago. But since you are repeating yourself, let me repeat myself:

Mutations happen and are an essential feature of the modern synthesis. There is not discrete a discrete transmission phase separate from a receving phase, so a better fit would be a receive-errorcorrection-transmit regeneration process in one go, as I have described already but you ignored.

This just isn't true. There are discrete sending, transmission, and receiving events when the DNA is constructed in the gametes. Just because they are hard to see doesn't mean they aren't there.

And while we are on ignoreg questions, are you aware that Shannon's theory shows that data transmission can have arbitrarily low error rates, so that the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to communications systems in general, but only to heat transfer systems?

And chemical processes are a heat transfer system.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Yes, the distribution of heat from usable to unusable places is what the 2nd law is about.

No the 2nd law is about the movement of heat towards thermodynamic equilibrium in a closed system. This generally means thermal diffusion; it's the spreading of heat (and thus molecules) from high concentrations to low concentrations in simplest terms.

Although I'm still curious as to what specific effect you think entropy has on mutations? If entropy had any effect at all on mutations (which it doesn't because mutations as segments of the DNA gain energy from exterior sources) it would be to drive the molecules of DNA apart, destroying the DNA in the process, which is exactly what happens when you die.

 

[noguru]

No the 2nd law is about the movement of heat towards thermodynamic equilibrium in a closed system. This generally means thermal diffusion; it's the spreading of heat (and thus molecules) from high concentrations to low concentrations in simplest terms.

Although I'm still curious as to what specific effect you think entropy has on mutations? If entropy had any effect at all on mutations (which it doesn't because mutations as segments of the DNA gain energy from exterior sources) it would be to drive the molecules of DNA apart, destroying the DNA in the process, which is exactly what happens when you die.

Yes, YECs (many but not all) want us to believe that SLoT did not exist until after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because they logically restrain "death" as it used in that part of Genesis to explain the results of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God. They are required to accept "death" as physical death there. Because they also hold that Christians who accept the science regarding an old earth and evolution are gutting the foundations of Christianity by claiming death existed before "the fall" from grace.

 

[noguru]

No the 2nd law is about the movement of heat towards thermodynamic equilibrium in a closed system. This generally means thermal diffusion; it's the spreading of heat (and thus molecules) from high concentrations to low concentrations in simplest terms.

Although I'm still curious as to what specific effect you think entropy has on mutations? If entropy had any effect at all on mutations (which it doesn't because mutations as segments of the DNA gain energy from exterior sources) it would be to drive the molecules of DNA apart, destroying the DNA in the process, which is exactly what happens when you die.

Yes, YECs (many but not all) want us to believe that SLoT did not exist until after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because they logically restrain "death" as it used in that part of Genesis to explain the results of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God. They are required to accept "death" as physical death there. Because they also hold that Christians who accept the science regarding an old earth and evolution are gutting the foundations of Christianity by claiming death existed before "the fall" from grace.

Of course none of them will like that their logic leads to this, and they will try to shoot the messenger by whining about me bringing the Bible into a scientific discussion of evolution. All the time ignoring the clear honest reality that it is they who are trying to bring the Bible into the scientific classroom.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Yes, YECs (many but not all) want us to believe that SLoT did not exist until after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because they logically restrain "death" as it used in that part of Genesis to explain the results of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God.

Then apparently ice-cubes didn't melt before "the fall".

So Adam and Eve are to blame for the melted ice-cubes that water down my drinks?

 

[noguru]

Then apparently ice-cubes didn't melt before "the fall".

So Adam and Eve are to blame for the melted ice-cubes that water down my drinks?

Yep, but at least you would not need much energy for your ice box.

 

[noguru]

Can you imagine how low your utilities bill would be?

 

[Yorzhik]

But you knew what my position on the subject was and you knew that I had said that entropy =/= mutational load. I know you knew these things because I told you and you directly responded to them in that thread on more than one occasion.

So if you didn't know YOU SHOULD HAVE and the only explanation for how you didn't would be either wilfully ignoring what I said or blatant stupidity. Do you at least admit now that you were wrong about your quote of me?

I don't believe you could be so illogical about your own stated position. I'm giving you the benefit of misstating your objections because you don't understand what is being said.

Yes. I feel like you are saying this like it supports your position somehow though.... A physicist calling entropy "disorder" is like a doctor calling an anticoagulant a "blood thinner". Both get the basic idea crudely across to a layman but neither is strictly accurate or rigorous terminology.

If it's good enough for Prof. Lambert, it's good enough for you. He says that common parlance uses entropy and the 2nd law interchangeably.

I'm saying that you can't say that entropy must always locally increase.

Of course. If you think I've said otherwise, then find the quote.

the Second Law of Thermodynamics says nothing about needing a "machine". Neither a machine nor design provides some magical property to violate entropy.

Yes, the SLoT doesn't say anything about a machine. But anytime there is local decrease in entropy, you must explain the mechanism.

In a fridge there is literally a machine. In other cases, like a rock rolling up a hill, there is a bigger hill the rock just rolled down. If you think there is a local decrease, just saying "the sun did it" isn't enough; you have to show the mechanism that redirected the sun's energy to create a local decrease.

You quote this like it is a rebuttal of something I said... :idunno:

It was a rebuttal. That's why I think you don't understand what is being said.

You are confusing Information theory and the Second Law of Thermodynamics again, perhaps because they both use the word entropy (though for different things).

No. I'm using them separately. Although I'm am explaining how in one small example in the context of this conversation they are related in one event.

 

[noguru]

I don't believe you could be so illogical about your own stated position. I'm giving you the benefit of misstating your objections because you don't understand what is being said.


If it's good enough for Prof. Lambert, it's good enough for you. He says that common parlance uses entropy and the 2nd law interchangeably.


Of course. If you think I've said otherwise, then find the quote.


Yes, the SLoT doesn't say anything about a machine. But anytime there is local decrease in entropy, you must explain the mechanism.

In a fridge there is literally a machine. In other cases, like a rock rolling up a hill, there is a bigger hill the rock just rolled down. If you think there is a local decrease, just saying "the sun did it" isn't enough; you have to show the mechanism that redirected the sun's energy to create a local increase.


It was a rebuttal. That's why I think you don't understand what is being said.


No. I'm using them separately. Although I'm am explaining how in one small example in the context of this conversation they are related in one event.

The universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. There are areas of concentrated energy throughout. There are also local decreases in entropy happening as those larger areas of concentration disperse. For biological life I have pointed out the mechanisms responsible for utilizing these pathways. If you are not aware of them, then why do you think you have anything to offer a productive discourse on the subject? You might want to do some research on metabolism, chemosynthesis, photosynthesis...before you make such overarching claims that "the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible". But you can continue wandering around in your own fog of confusion, you are the only one who will suffer. Well you and every other brain dead YEC.

 

[Yorzhik]

No the 2nd law is about the movement of heat towards thermodynamic equilibrium in a closed system. This generally means thermal diffusion; it's the spreading of heat (and thus molecules) from high concentrations to low concentrations in simplest terms.

Although I'm still curious as to what specific effect you think entropy has on mutations? If entropy had any effect at all on mutations (which it doesn't because mutations as segments of the DNA gain energy from exterior sources) it would be to drive the molecules of DNA apart, destroying the DNA in the process, which is exactly what happens when you die.

I'd love to talk with you but you seem like a debating machine that takes words or phrases and generates responses without any capacity to have a conversation.

Let me ask you this: has a YEC ever made a good point scientifically in favor of a young earth view? Here's an example - When Common Descentists complain that we don't have a good understanding of how variation works in DNA code, I think they make a good point. Or when Common Descentists say that most scientists admit to the veracity of evolution, they make a good point. See how that works? Has a YEC ever made a good point against Common Descent? If so, what is it?

 

[Yorzhik]

metabolism, chemosynthesis, photosynthesis

These mechanisms create local decreases in entropy which allow organisms to do things like... run up a hill.

But are you also claiming these mechanisms can reverse mutational load?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I'd love to talk with you but you seem like a debating machine that takes words or phrases and generates responses without any capacity to have a conversation.

Let me ask you this: has a YEC ever made a good point scientifically in favor of a young earth view? Here's an example - When Common Descentists complain that we don't have a good understanding of how variation works in DNA code, I think they make a good point. Or when Common Descentists say that most scientists admit to the veracity of evolution, they make a good point. See how that works? Has a YEC ever made a good point against Common Descent? If so, what is it?

The best argument that YECs have available to them, in my estimation, is that Junk (non-coding) DNA is generally found to be more functional and useful than previously thought. This isn't necessarily an argument in favor of young earth creationism, but rather a good rebuttal to the "Junk DNA" argument that makes me cringe whenever I hear it from someone advocating Evolution.

Overall though, I give Young Earth Creationism the same credence I give to Geocentrists, Flat-earthers, and Holocaust deniers.

 

[Yorzhik]

Can you summarize for us how the 2nd law stops evolution from working?

The SLoT doesn't stop evolution from working.

The SLoT insures that information entropy occurs during the transmission phase of communication in a cell. Especially important in this conversation would be the communication that takes place during the construction of the gametes and when the first cell of a multi-celled organism is made. Information entropy causes mutational load.

 

[Yorzhik]

The best argument that YECs have available to them, in my estimation, is that Junk (non-coding) DNA is generally found to be more functional and useful than previously thought. This isn't necessarily an argument in favor of young earth creationism, but rather a good rebuttal to the "Junk DNA" argument that makes me cringe whenever I hear it from someone advocating Evolution.

Overall though, I give Young Earth Creationism the same credence I give to Geocentrists, Flat-earthers, and Holocaust deniers.

I'm impressed. That's the first time ever in my life, and I've been talking about YEC with Common Descentists for many years, that I have heard a single point YEC has made in YEC's favor.

So back to the conversation. Do you think "distributed from usable to unusable places" and "spreading [in general]" are really that far removed from each other in meaning, especially in the context of this conversation? Can we, just in the spirit of charitable use, admit they aren't that far apart in meaning and stay focused on the actual topic of what the SLoT causes in chemical communications?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I'm impressed. That's the first time ever in my life, and I've been talking about YEC with Common Descentists for many years, that I have heard a single point YEC has made in YEC's favor.

Let me not be accused of being unreasonable.

Do you think "distributed from usable to unusable places" and "spreading [in general]" are really that far removed from each other in meaning, especially in the context of this conversation? Can we, just in the spirit of charitable use, admit they aren't that far apart in meaning and stay focused on the actual topic of what the SLoT causes in chemical communications?

No, I don't think I could or should admit such a thing in earnest, not even charitably, given that the differences are sufficient enough to affect the veracity of the claim depending upon which meaning is applied.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Daedaleon's_Sun,

You have a very difficult user name. It's hard to spell and long. Anyway, I love you in Christ anyways, and you are a very good person from what I've seen so far. How about I call you Dae?? Cool, eh?

Otherwise I am very interested in you and your views. You are very close to being in Heaven from what I've seen. Just like Jesus knew about the thieves destiny to be the 1st one in heaven besides Himself, so I get the same sense about certain people who are going this time around. I respect you. Give me more about yourself, so I can make a better decision. You are rare and I must seek you out myself to see WHO YOU ARE!! I didn't have to do this with God and Jesus, because I already believed in Them and didn't need to learn anything new. I was told God existed and more, and that Jesus was His Son and more. That was all it took for me to ask Jesus to be in my heart. And It Was So. Tell me more about yourself. Very interesting!!

God Be With You Before, During and After Armageddon and Jesus' Return!!

MichaelC

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Yorzhik,

You've been so caring despite being railed upon and unfairly dealt with, that I think the best of you. How you've managed to do it, I don't know. I am not a YEC. I am an Old Earth Creationist. Can you understand that? Frankly, it seems like I'm by myself. But that won't last long once Jesus returns and verifies it for me to others.

The Lord God made man and woman a number of times since the caveman and dinosaurs lived on the earth. There were times He regretted having made them and He extincted them a number of times. You see this happening in Noah's Flood, and also Sodom and Gomorrah. It will happen again soon, but I'm thinking a third of the world's people will live through it. But then again, maybe not. It is not something the Lord has revealed to me. It does say that the meek shall inherit the earth, but when will that be? In a thousand years, or not? I'm definitely thinking they will be of those who survived Armageddon and Jesus' Second Return. It says that the Gentiles shall take hold of the skirt of a Jew and say 'teach us thy ways and precepts.' It says a lot of things. So that is my belief. I do know that a third of the earth's population shall die. Another third shall perhaps go to heaven. That leaves one more third. Life is interesting. Yorzhik, I've never posted to you because I am not that knowledgeable about anything except Creationism. Now that is MY SUJBECT. I know It WELL. But you all seem to disagree. I believe what I've already said on this thread and am hardly going to repeat it. YEC's give no explanation about dinosaurs and bones being found that are older than our own Adam and Eve. What about 'Lucy?' No one is going to believe the truth. It is horrendous. So be it. Amen. Selah! Glory To God!!

Michael

 

[Tyrathca]

The SLoT doesn't stop evolution from working.

I'm glad you think so, I'll probably quote you on that in future.

The SLoT insures that information entropy occurs during the transmission phase of communication in a cell.

There you go again. You say you are using the SLoT separately to Information theory but here you are acting as if they discuss the same thing.

Information entropy causes mutational load.

And you do it AGAIN, jumping from SLoT entropy to information entropy as if they can be used interchangeably without explanation.

 

[alwight]

YEC's give no explanation about dinosaurs and bones being found that are older than our own Adam and Eve. What about 'Lucy?' No one is going to believe the truth. It is horrendous. So be it. Amen. Selah! Glory To God!!

Michael

YECs above all presuppose that the Genesis account is a factual narrative, ask Stripe.
Under no circumstances will YECs accept scientific conclusions if they seem to contradict their rigid scriptural blueprint.
Even if they are unable to materially square their own belief in a young Earth with empirical reality then they will simply adhere to scripture presuming that all the facts are not known (time-warps maybe ?).

 

[noguru]

YECs above all presuppose that the Genesis account is a factual narrative, ask Stripe.
Under no circumstances will YECs accept scientific conclusions if they seem to contradict their rigid scriptural blueprint.
Even if they are unable to materially square their own belief in a young Earth with empirical reality then they will simply adhere to scripture presuming that all the facts are not known (time-warps maybe ?).

K:

I want the TRUTH and I want it NOW!

A rather childish demand, given the nature of reality and knowledge. Add that to their impatience. :chuckle: