Creation vs. Evolution

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6days

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Human evolution is still in progress.
That is true...
Its also the fallacy of equivocation.
Our waistlines evolve
Population groups have evolved distinct features.
Diets evolve
That is observable change... empirical science.

But that quite different than the non observable beliefs that humans evolved from a common ancestor.
 

Jukia

New member
That is true...
Its also the fallacy of equivocation.
Our waistlines evolve
Population groups have evolved distinct features.
Diets evolve
That is observable change... empirical science.

But that quite different than the non observable beliefs that humans evolved from a common ancestor.

Yet you believe a book cobbled together from shepherds oral myth. Interesting.
 

alwight

New member
Just wait, you'll see after I have covered each false claim, that was supposedly corrected, there ends up absolutely no fossil evidence for human evolution whatever.

Proof for human evolution is apparently still a work in progress.

The only thing that's evolved over time is the theory itself.

--Dave
Once again Dave you seem to expect proof for a theory, which isn't going to happen.:nono:

Talking of fossils I would like to know where you think Neanderthal fossils fit into your thinking?
Science seems to conclude that they were a separate human species, what do think?
If evolution doesn't account for their existence and a probable common ancestry with us, were they then part of the creation event you presumably believe took place?
To my mind they do indeed indicate a shared ancestry and that how just one earlier species evolved two distinctly different physical traits, what is your take?
 

6days

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Yet you believe a book cobbled together from shepherds oral myth. Interesting.
Yes, I believe God`s Word!! God did use some very ordinary people and interesting people to `cobble` together one united, cohesive story written over the course of 1500 years.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Yes, I believe God`s Word!! God did use some very ordinary people and interesting people to `cobble` together one united, cohesive story written over the course of 1500 years.

It's not science. And any mature reasonable person realizes that. Unfortunately you cannot see reality over your over bloated ego.
 

noguru

Well-known member
More of that same ole you cant believe what you see hunh?

Really?

Thats all you got?

I will stick with what God says.

He says I can believe what I see and feel.

As long as the ToE is in the childrens school books, we will never want for a fresh batch of fantasizers.

Hebrews 5:14 KJV
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Thou shall not take the name of the lord thy God in vain.

God does not make you stupid. You do that all on your own.
 

6days

New member
Talking of fossils I would like to know where you think Neanderthal fossils fit into your thinking?
Science seems to conclude that they were a separate human species, what do think?
Science concludes no such thing. Evolutionists conclude that.... but not based on evidence. They base it on beliefs.
Biblical creationists believe Neandertals are a people group that are descendants from Adam and Eve. (Like other people groups such as pygmies, but still fully human)

Evolutionists once tried to get people to believe Neandertals were a separate species of human, incapable of breeding with 'modern' humans. They were wrong. Neandertals did interbreed with other humans.
 

noguru

Well-known member
The thing is that evolutionary 'science' accepts shoddy conclusions based on evidence that would be laughable and not tolerated in other fields of science. Dave has listed several examples of fraud that evolutionists just believed, because it fit their beliefs.

Another example is Harvard prof, evolutionary psychologist, Marc Hauser who was well respected by his peers for his work in associating psychological traits in humans and apes. Students had complained for years, suspecting fraud. It turns out Hauser was faking evidence because of his beliefs, and resigned in disgrace. . This does happen in other fields of science but rare compared to how often this happens from evolutionists.
http://chronicle.com/article/Marc-Hauser-Resigns-From/128296/


True... evolutionists still keep their beliefs even though their 'proofs' have vaporized.

Science concludes no such thing. Evolutionists conclude that.... but not based on evidence. They base it on beliefs.
Biblical creationists believe Neandertals are a people group that are descendants from Adam and Eve. (Like other people groups such as pygmies, but still fully human)

Evolutionists once tried to get people to believe Neandertals were a separate species of human, incapable of breeding with 'modern' humans. They were wrong. Neandertals did interbreed with other humans.

Evolution is the conclusion reached from logic, the empirical evidence and an assumption of naturalistic processes in regard to the origin of species, that's it. It does not vary from any other area of science in that regard. So your objections are based on either ignorance of that fact, or downright knowledgeable deceit.
 
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MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear 6days,

Neanderthals came before our Adam and Eve. They came from the Adams before our own Adam. You just don't understand, do you? Read Post No. 1 on this Creation site and read it carefully.

And He called "Their" name 'Adam' in the day/generation "They" were created/formed. Our own Adam and Eve are OUR generation. That is why Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass before all of these things be fulfilled." But there were generations of man and woman at different periods before our own Adam and Eve. I know you can't understand it yet, but it's something you will grasp someday. That's why it's written in Genesis, "and the field before it was in the earth, and the field before it grew, etc."

Praise God For His Extraordinary Imagination!!

Michael


God's Best For You,

Michael
 
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alwight

New member
Science concludes no such thing. Evolutionists conclude that.... but not based on evidence. They base it on beliefs.
Biblical creationists believe Neandertals are a people group that are descendants from Adam and Eve. (Like other people groups such as pygmies, but still fully human)

Evolutionists once tried to get people to believe Neandertals were a separate species of human, incapable of breeding with 'modern' humans. They were wrong. Neandertals did interbreed with other humans.
Yes but I don't believe that there even are such people as "evolutionists", except in the feeble imaginations of creationists perhaps. Rational people either accept or reject scientific conclusion based on their understanding of the evidence. Natural scientists usually have a higher understanding than most of course and conclude that Neanderthals were a close but distinctly different species of human, based on their features and DNA. Creationists like you otoh however are probably "presuppositionally" compelled to claim that they are no different at all from homo sapiens despite the fact that they clearly were.
 

Jukia

New member
Yes, I believe God`s Word!! God did use some very ordinary people and interesting people to `cobble` together one united, cohesive story written over the course of 1500 years.

It does seem relatively cohesive but, sad to say, it is not very accurate.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
:rotfl:

Right, and instead of submitting all your work for peer review to get in line for a Nobel Prize you'd rather prance around here with a puffed up chest trying to impress your fellow YEC idiots.

Just who do you think you are fooling? Your analysis of every point so far has been horrendous. What makes you think your contributions on this subject are actually worthwhile?

Everything I've said is absolutely true about the changes that have occurred in the "theory" of the evolution of man. Once all the changes have been examined the conclusion of what it means will be obvious for the rational minded.

--Dave
 

Jukia

New member
Are you evolving? Just how much human evolution have you or anyone else observed?

--Dave

displaying your ignorance again. Individuals do not evolve.

If evolutionary theory is an accurate representation of the real world, and it appears to be, why would human populations not evolve?
 

noguru

Well-known member
Everything I've said is absolutely true about the changes that have occurred in the "theory" of the evolution of man. Once all the changes have been examined the conclusion of what it means will be obvious for the rational minded.

--Dave

I do not agree Dave. I am not surprised you cannot see your own delusion Dave. I have met many like you. It takes courage to be honest with yourself. Unfortunately many people want the quick/easy way out so they are not honest with themselves.

You continue to demonstrate that you mangle and misuse science as much as you do philosophy and theology in order to cater to your whims.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Australophitecus_africanus_Taung_child64.jpg
Dart-Taung-Child-221x300.jpg


The status of the Taung Child fossil has changed a few times.

"The idea that the skull belonged to a new genus was identified by comparison with skulls of chimpanzees. The endocast of the Taung child was larger than a fully grown chimpanzee's. The forehead of the chimpanzee receded to form a heavy browridge and a jutting jaw; while the Taung child's forehead recedes, but leaves no browridge. The Taung child's foramen magnum (a void in the cranium where the spinal cord is continuous with the brain) is located beneath the cranium, showing that the creature stood upright.

The British scientific establishment was at the time enamored with the hoax Piltdown Man, which had a large brain and ape-like teeth – the exact opposite of the Taung Child – and Dart's interpretation was not appreciated for decades."

After Dart presented the fossil of Australopithecus africanus, he received substantial criticism from scientists.

Arthur Keith, one of the most prominent anatomists to comment on the fossil, said: "[Dart's] claim is preposterous, the skull is that of a young anthropoid ape . . . and showing so many points of affinity with the two living African anthropoids, the gorilla and chimpanzee, that there cannot be a moment's hesitation in placing the fossil form in this living group".

Solly Zuckerman carried out studies of the Australopithecines family. Zuckerman thought that Australopithecus was little more than an ape. Zuckerman and a four-member team worked on the issue in the 1950s. Zuckerman decided that these creatures had not walked on two legs and were not an intermediate form between humans and apes. The concluding report by Zuckerman read: "For my own part, the anatomical basis for the claim that the Australopithecines walked and ran upright like man is so much more flimsy than the evidence which points to the conclusion that their gait was some variant of what one sees in subhuman Primates, that it remains unacceptable".

Dean Falk, a specialist in neuroanatomy, declared that the Taung skull belonged to a young monkey. "In his 1975 article, Dart had claimed that the brain of Taung was humanlike. As it turned out, he was wrong about that. . . . Taung's humanlike features were overemphasized"."Like humans, [apes and monkeys] go through stages as they grow up. In his analysis of Taung, Dart did not fully appreciate that infant apes have not had time to develop features of the skull, such as thickened eyebrow ridges or attachment areas for heavy neck muscles, that set adult apes apart from human. Apparently he did not carefully consider the possibility that Taung's rounded forehead or the inferred position of the spinal cord might be due to the immaturity of the apelike specimen rather than to its resemblance to humans".

John Reader said that "Dart drew bold conclusions from his unavoidably limited observations".--Wiki

Taung creates a change from "larger brain development comes before upright walking" to "upright walking comes before larger brain development".

"According to the era’s prevailing view— “proven” by the anatomy of the Piltdown specimen, which was later unmasked as a hoax—increases in brain size preceded the emergence of other human attributes during early hominin evolution. While the Taung skull had human-like characteristics such as small canines, a steep forehead, and a spinal cord alignment that suggested bipedalism, Taung’s brain size was closer to that of a nonhuman ape. The fossil heralded a new direction."

But this view of evolution creates an interesting conflict. "The obstetrical dilemma refers to two conflicting trends in the evolutionary development of the human pelvis where the transition to walking upright, bipedal locomotion, required a decreased size of the bony birth-canal but the trend toward increased intelligence required a larger cranium, which would need a wider obstetrical pelvic area."--Wiki

--Dave
 

noguru

Well-known member
Australophitecus_africanus_Taung_child64.jpg
Dart-Taung-Child-221x300.jpg


The status of the Taung Child fossil has changed a few times.

"The idea that the skull belonged to a new genus was identified by comparison with skulls of chimpanzees. The endocast of the Taung child was larger than a fully grown chimpanzee's. The forehead of the chimpanzee receded to form a heavy browridge and a jutting jaw; while the Taung child's forehead recedes, but leaves no browridge. The Taung child's foramen magnum (a void in the cranium where the spinal cord is continuous with the brain) is located beneath the cranium, showing that the creature stood upright.

The British scientific establishment was at the time enamored with the hoax Piltdown Man, which had a large brain and ape-like teeth – the exact opposite of the Taung Child – and Dart's interpretation was not appreciated for decades."

After Dart presented the fossil of Australopithecus africanus, he received substantial criticism from scientists.

Arthur Keith, one of the most prominent anatomists to comment on the fossil, said: "[Dart's] claim is preposterous, the skull is that of a young anthropoid ape . . . and showing so many points of affinity with the two living African anthropoids, the gorilla and chimpanzee, that there cannot be a moment's hesitation in placing the fossil form in this living group".

Solly Zuckerman carried out studies of the Australopithecines family. Zuckerman thought that Australopithecus was little more than an ape. Zuckerman and a four-member team worked on the issue in the 1950s. Zuckerman decided that these creatures had not walked on two legs and were not an intermediate form between humans and apes. The concluding report by Zuckerman read:
"For my own part, the anatomical basis for the claim that the Australopithecines walked and ran upright like man is so much more flimsy than the evidence which points to the conclusion that their gait was some variant of what one sees in subhuman Primates, that it remains unacceptable".

Dean Falk, a specialist in neuroanatomy, declared that the Taung skull belonged to a young monkey. "In his 1975 article, Dart had claimed that the brain of Taung was humanlike. As it turned out, he was wrong about that. . . . Taung's humanlike features were overemphasized"."Like humans, [apes and monkeys] go through stages as they grow up. In his analysis of Taung, Dart did not fully appreciate that infant apes have not had time to develop features of the skull, such as thickened eyebrow ridges or attachment areas for heavy neck muscles, that set adult apes apart from human. Apparently he did not carefully consider the possibility that Taung's rounded forehead or the inferred position of the spinal cord might be due to the immaturity of the apelike specimen rather than to its resemblance to humans".

John Reader said that "Dart drew bold conclusions from his unavoidably limited observations".--Wiki

Taung creates a change from "larger brain development comes before upright walking" to "upright walking comes before larger brain development".

"According to the era’s prevailing view— “proven” by the anatomy of the Piltdown specimen, which was later unmasked as a hoax—increases in brain size preceded the emergence of other human attributes during early hominin evolution. While the Taung skull had human-like characteristics such as small canines, a steep forehead, and a spinal cord alignment that suggested bipedalism, Taung’s brain size was closer to that of a nonhuman ape. The fossil heralded a new direction."

But this view of evolution creates an interesting conflict. "The obstetrical dilemma refers to two conflicting trends in the evolutionary development of the human pelvis where the transition to walking upright, bipedal locomotion, required a decreased size of the bony birth-canal but the trend toward increased intelligence required a larger cranium, which would need a wider obstetrical pelvic area."--Wiki

--Dave

Again Dave this is due to your poor understanding. Complete bipedalism is obviously the precursor to increased cranium capacity. The fact that some people got that wrong, does not negate the evidence for common ancestry. Of course the level of intelligence in humans is the result of a multitude of other factors as well. Some of which are the opposing thumbs (which developed in primates), vertebrate rather than invertebrate, endothermic rather than exothermic...

If only you actually made the attempt to understand all this, then you would not look like such a fool when you pretend to understand.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
displaying your ignorance again. Individuals do not evolve.

If evolutionary theory is an accurate representation of the real world, and it appears to be, why would human populations not evolve?

The answer to my question is that no one has ever observed human evolution is because a. it takes place gradually over millions of years, or b. humans did not evolve they were created whole and complete.

I am building my case from the history of the theory of evolution that it has never been established that humans evolved as per the fossil record.

I will show that through history change after change of the theory of human evolution has occurred in order to avoid the fact that human evolution has been falsified by the fossil record.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Again Dave this is due to your poor understanding. Complete bipedalism is obviously the precursor to increased cranium capacity. The fact that some people got that wrong, does not negate the evidence for common ancestry. Of course the level of intelligence in humans is the result of a multitude of other factors as well. Some of which are the opposing thumbs (which developed in primates), vertebrate rather than invertebrate, endothermic rather than exothermic...

If only you actually made the attempt to understand all this, then you would not look like such a fool when you pretend to understand.

It's seems in the theory of evolution someone is always getting something wrong which means, by the time I've covered every major fossil of mans so called evolution, no one really knows anything with certainty.

--Dave
 

noguru

Well-known member
It's seems in the theory of evolution someone is always getting something wrong which means, by the time I've covered every major fossil of mans so called evolution, no one really knows anything with certainty.

--Dave

Dave you get it wrong consistently. Complex ideas are sometimes problematic for people to understand, despite being true.

“The truth is sometimes a poor competitor in the market place of ideas – complicated, unsatisfying, full of dilemmas, always vulnerable to misinterpretation and abuse.”

― George F. Kennan
 
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