Christians are supposed to be kosher?

[brewmama]

In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something?

No. We are not bound by all the OT laws, and if some people think so, they are on the extreme edge of Christian belief, and are a miniscule minority. And they are mostly wrong on other things they say too.

 

[Ben Masada]

In the long-running Creation vs. Evolution thread, Christian poster iouae explained that the OT covenant is still in effect and God expects everyone to still follow the OT laws, including the dietary laws. Not only that, but he also said any Christians who don't see it that way are "stupid".

Now, it's been awhile since I've been to any sort of Bible study, but I'm pretty sure I was taught that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new one, thereby removing the obligation of Christians to abide by things lie the OT dietary laws.

Did I miss something?

Yes, the command to observe dietary laws bounds only the Jews, not Gentiles. The term "fulfilled" according to the context of Mat. 5:17-19 is to be interpreted as "confirmed" because if you read verse 18 and 19, Jesus made it quite clear that we all are supposed to do the same and, rather heaven and earth would pass away before a single letter of the Law could pass away.

 

[Jose Fly]

:think: Did you become a Christian over Christmas, Jose???

No, of course not. As I've explained before, I was raised in a Christian family and was taken to church virtually every Sunday from when I was born until I was 15, so I do know about the faith.

Probably Jesus, but we'll see...
(most of us ignore you any more because of your 'fun ridicule' agenda, but hey, if you had a conversion...I didn't take it that way, but certainly you left that door wide open, confused a Jew or cultist or two...I'd be happy of course if you were trying to say something about appreciating AWANA for your kids or something...)

Way to dodge the question.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No. We are not bound by all the OT laws, and if some people think so, they are on the extreme edge of Christian belief, and are a miniscule minority. And they are mostly wrong on other things they say too.

_____
Christian views on the Old Covenant
. . .
Theologian Thomas Aquinas explained that there are three types of biblical precepts: moral, ceremonial, and judicial. He holds that moral precepts are permanent, having held even before the Law was given, since they are part of the law of nature.
. . .
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) divides the Mosaic laws into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. In the view of the Westminster Divines, only the moral laws of the Mosaic Law, which include the Ten Commandments and the commands repeated in the New Testament, directly apply to Christians today.
. . .
Article 7 of the Church of England's 1563 version, and other versions, specify only that Christians are bound by the "commandments which are called moral," but not bound by the ceremonial, ritual, or civil laws from the "law of Moses."
. . .
Replacing the Mosaic Law is the “Law of Christ”, which however holds definite similarities with the Mosaic Law in moral concerns, but is new and different, replacing the original Law. Despite this difference, Dispensationalists continue to seek to find moral and religious principles applicable for today in Mosaic Law.
. . .
_____​

Do you agree with Thomas Aquinas, the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the Church of England that Christians are still bound by the moral laws from the Law of Moses?
Or do you agree with the Dispensationalists that the "Law of Christ" affirms the moral principles that are found in the Mosaic Law?

 

[Jose Fly]

Christians are bound by the Law of God for righteousness, which includes the commandments found in the Old Testament.

So that's at least two in the "Christians are bound by the OT laws" camp.

No. We are not bound by all the OT laws, and if some people think so, they are on the extreme edge of Christian belief, and are a miniscule minority.

the command to observe dietary laws bounds only the Jews, not Gentiles

And that's at least two in the "Christians are not bound by the OT laws camp".

Again, this would seem to be a pretty important question. After all, Christians wouldn't want to be breaking God's laws, right? So why isn't this more clear?

 

[brewmama]

_____
Christian views on the Old Covenant
. . .
Theologian Thomas Aquinas explained that there are three types of biblical precepts: moral, ceremonial, and judicial. He holds that moral precepts are permanent, having held even before the Law was given, since they are part of the law of nature.
. . .
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) divides the Mosaic laws into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. In the view of the Westminster Divines, only the moral laws of the Mosaic Law, which include the Ten Commandments and the commands repeated in the New Testament, directly apply to Christians today.
. . .
Article 7 of the Church of England's 1563 version, and other versions, specify only that Christians are bound by the "commandments which are called moral," but not bound by the ceremonial, ritual, or civil laws from the "law of Moses."
. . .
Replacing the Mosaic Law is the “Law of Christ”, which however holds definite similarities with the Mosaic Law in moral concerns, but is new and different, replacing the original Law. Despite this difference, Dispensationalists continue to seek to find moral and religious principles applicable for today in Mosaic Law.
. . .
_____​

Do you agree with Thomas Aquinas, the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the Church of England that Christians are still bound by the moral laws from the Law of Moses?
Or do you agree with the Dispensationalists that the "Law of Christ" affirms the moral principles that are found in the Mosaic Law?

Yes, but that wasn't the question.

 

[brewmama]

So that's at least two in the "Christians are bound by the OT laws" camp.





And that's at least two in the "Christians are not bound by the OT laws camp".

Again, this would seem to be a pretty important question. After all, Christians wouldn't want to be breaking God's laws, right? So why isn't this more clear?

It's pretty clear. Like I said it's the fringe that says otherwise.

 

[Jose Fly]

It's pretty clear. Like I said it's the fringe that says otherwise.

Well at least one person you refer to as being on the "fringe" refers to Christians like you (who don't believe Christians are bound by OT laws) as "stupid".

So there's that....:think:

 

[genuineoriginal]

So that's at least two in the "Christians are bound by the OT laws" camp.

And that's at least two in the "Christians are not bound by the OT laws camp".

Again, this would seem to be a pretty important question. After all, Christians wouldn't want to be breaking God's laws, right? So why isn't this more clear?

It is very clear in the Bible outside the words of Paul.

Peter recognized that the unlearned and unstable were twisting the words of Paul to make it sound like Christians were supposed to be lawless.

2 Peter 3:14-18 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

 

[brewmama]

Well at least one person you refer to as being on the "fringe" refers to Christians like you (who don't believe Christians are bound by OT laws) as "stupid".

So there's that....:think:

I've had dealings with him before. I couldn't care less what he thinks.

If you look at the full panoply of Christian thought and belief, it's fringe. I'm not going to argue about it.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well at least one person you refer to as being on the "fringe" refers to Christians like you (who don't believe Christians are bound by OT laws) as "stupid".

So there's that....:think:

If you look at her answer to my question, her response is that Christians are bound by the moral laws, but not by the dietary (ceremonial) or judicial laws.

 

[Jose Fly]

Peter recognized that the unlearned and unstable were twisting the words of Paul to make it sound like Christians were supposed to be lawless.

So Christians who don't believe they are bound by the OT laws in addition to being "stupid" are "unlearned and unstable".

Interesting.

 

[daqq]

:think: Did you become a Christian over Christmas, Jose???

You kind of set yourself up for it with this OP :think:

Probably Jesus, but we'll see...
(most of us ignore you any more because of your 'fun ridicule' agenda, but hey, if you had a conversion...I didn't take it that way, but certainly you left that door wide open, confused a Jew or cultist or two...I'd be happy of course if you were trying to say something about appreciating AWANA for your kids or something...)

It is you who are confused and it would not be surprising to find that the OP counts you likewise to be in a cult of your own. As for what I know I said it plainly and it is not confusing:

Exodus 20:13
13. Thou shalt not ratsach-murder-kill.

Deuteronomy 5:17
17. Thou shalt not ratsach-murder-kill.

Isaiah 1:10-15
10. Hear the Word of YHWH, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the Torah of our Elohim, ye people of Gomorrah.
11. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? says YHWH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12. When ye come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand to tread My courts?
13. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto Me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14. Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates: they are a trouble unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
15. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide My eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood!

Isaiah 66:1-4
1. Thus says YHWH, The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest?
2. For all those things My hand has made, and all those things have been, says YHWH: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at My Word.
3. Whoso slaughters the ox slays a man, whoso sacrifices the lamb beheads a dog, whoso offers up an oblation it is as the blood of a sow, whoso burns incense blesses iniquity. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations.
4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[Ben Masada]

So that's at least two in the "Christians are bound by the OT laws" camp.

And that's at least two in the "Christians are not bound by the OT laws camp".

Again, this would seem to be a pretty important question. After all, Christians wouldn't want to be breaking God's laws, right? So why isn't this more clear?

What is clear about some Jewish practices as Gentiles are concerned is that they are advisable but not mandatory as the Gentiles are concerned.

 

[Jose Fly]

I've had dealings with him before. I couldn't care less what he thinks.

If you look at the full panoply of Christian thought and belief, it's fringe. I'm not going to argue about it.

Fair enough. Thanks for weighing in! :up:

 

[Jose Fly]

If you look at her answer to my question, her response is that Christians are bound by the moral laws, but not by the dietary (ceremonial) or judicial laws.

And do you believe Christians are bound by the dietary laws?

 

[Ben Masada]

But even circumcision, though not commanded for Christians, has great health benefits, including giving a lot of immunity against HIV/AIDS.

Believe me! I am very glad to hear how valuable is Judaism to the world. It means that the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology is pretty stupid.

 

[Ben Masada]

So what's the verdict? Are Christians supposed to be kosher and obey the OT dietary laws or not?

Valuable though, but not mandatory.

 

[iouae]

Believe me! I am very glad to hear how valuable is Judaism to the world. It means that the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology is pretty stupid.

I consider the OT to be very relevant and useful, and I believe in keeping the dietary laws, sex laws, Lev 23 feasts and much more.

And I don't believe the Church replaced Israel in God's heart. Both are chosen equally. Problem is the Jews rejected Jesus and continue to do so. This is a bit of a deal breaker with God. The rejection is not from God's part towards the Jews, but on the Jews part towards His Son.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So Christians who don't believe they are bound by the OT laws in addition to being "stupid" are "unlearned and unstable".

Interesting.

It is not a matter of believing you are bound by the Old Testament laws so much as a matter of whether you are rebelling against them or not.

Christians have the Law of God put in their hearts and written in their minds.

Hebrews 10:16 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”​

The commandments in the Torah are included in the Laws of God that is written in our minds.

When the New Testament was written, there were three paths that Christians could be led to walk along.

Legalistic obedience to the teachings of the Pharisees was condemned by Jesus, the 12, and by Paul.
Lawlessness was condemned by Jesus, the 12, and by Paul.
A middle ground that rejected both legalism and lawlessness was taught by Jesus, the 12, and by Paul.

This middle ground involved obedience to righteousness without a legalistic observance of the teachings of the Pharisees.

Romans 2:5-11 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​